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Post by lemacd on Oct 19, 2021 2:20:23 GMT
Hey, everyone. Ok, take a moment and breathe deeply. It helps with shock. I think. Actually, I just made that up. Anyhoo... here is a new screencap. Apparently there seems to be a lot to say about the old ones still, which is amazing. But I thought maybe a new one would help me dip my toes back in proboards. Liesl is telling her story about getting locked out and not wanting to wake anyone, etc. And Maria is thinking... what?
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Post by augiesannie on Oct 19, 2021 12:51:42 GMT
She looks skeptical. Which suggests that Maria has either spent a lot of time with mischievous teenage girls, or that back in the day, she was involved in a bit of mischief herself. I always thought it was funny that Maria got right to the point: were you out walking by yourself?
Also I know this is off topic but I love all the detail here: the bolts of fabric we see made into dresses later, the bathrobe we'll see shortly. Who put the flowers there: the girls whose affection she has already earned, or Frau Schmidt.
welcome back!
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Post by lemacd on Oct 19, 2021 22:26:40 GMT
I think she looks like she's daring Liesl to give her an excuse she herself has never used when she was late for everything (except for every meal... sorry, can't help it). But I like what you said about getting straight to the point. She knew that there was another person involved, probably picked up at dinner that it was that boy, Rolf (did it again). But she also doesn't judge or freak out. There's no "wait until your father hears about this!" about Maria.
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Post by indigoblue on Oct 19, 2021 23:23:36 GMT
HELLO LEMACD! Welcome back!
My tuppence-worth is that Maria sees a mirror of herself in Liesl, that's what that look is, and why she doesn't berate her - she knows that rules will get broken if there is something important to you to be done.
I'm always wondering which clothes the bolts of fabric are for, because the top yellow one looks to me like Maria's new outfit from when she returns from her honeymoon, and the green one - not sure!
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Post by augiesannie on Oct 19, 2021 23:39:45 GMT
HELLO LEMACD! Welcome back! My tuppence-worth is that Maria sees a mirror of herself in Liesl, that's what that look is, and why she doesn't berate her - she knows that rules will get broken if there is something important to you to be done. I'm always wondering which clothes the bolts of fabric are for, because the top yellow one looks to me like Maria's new outfit from when she returns from her honeymoon, and the green one - not sure! I thought the gold one was the one she wears in the carriage (do-re-mi).
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Post by reverendcaptain on Oct 20, 2021 18:41:58 GMT
That look says to me "I'm not buying whatever it is that you're selling." Though there is something in her look that makes Liesl go from "Are you going to tell on me?" to "You're not going to tell father, are you." The last one was a statement, not a question. So maybe she trusts that Maria is going to be different from the other governesses who would have been all to happy to rat her out? I like that Maria makes her own up to being out with someone else instead of just saying, "I saw you leave dinner when that telegram boy arrived. I know what you were up to." Then, not only is she not going to tell on Liesl, she's going to help her cover up the evidence that she was ever not where she was supposed to be. Winning over Liesl had to be a major victory in getting the other older kids to trust her. (the littles were already sold) As for the fabric, the top is the carriage fabric, the middle is dark brown (so what she is wearing when they leave for the picnic), and bottom appears to be a dark blue with a pattern on it (I don't think we ever see this one). Not sure where her other clothes, shoes, hat come from..
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laurynvi
Full Member
I ask you to stay.
Posts: 212
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Post by laurynvi on Oct 21, 2021 0:37:22 GMT
Her bedraggled appearance sort of parallels Maria's earlier frazzled run back to the Abbey - I'm sure she sympathizes, and it's interesting to see her role switch from the transgressor to the one in control.
Sometimes I wonder whether perhaps Liesl could be testing her or seeing if Maria could be an ally. If she needed to get inside she could just have easily climbed through the nursery window or at least gotten the attention of one of her siblings...
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Post by augiesannie on Oct 24, 2021 22:47:15 GMT
nice work reverendcaptain! And laurynvi, I suppose they had more practice getting into the governess' room than the nursery. Don't you like the way she says, "that's how we always got into the governess' room" like it was ancient history?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 14, 2022 1:34:29 GMT
Liesl is pretty open in this conversation about playing tricks on the governess, don't you think? It would ruin the surprise attack of spiders in the bed if you told her that you are capable of doing it and how you were going to get in there to deliver the creepy crawlies. She must have already decided that she was done playing tricks on Maria. Do you think this happened during the guilt trip at dinner? Though Liesl looks kind of dismayed as to why everyone is so upset that they are crying. Or maybe more likely, the change of heart happened right in this moment when Maria is praying out loud about being Liesl's friend instead of scolding and/or running off to tell the captain about her rendezvous with the telegram boy.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 14, 2022 23:30:39 GMT
Yes, I'd say your last thought is right; the kids must have got used to being berated by their governesses in the past, so to have one who considers herself to be on their level must be a new experience for them, and very pleasing.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 19, 2022 18:24:42 GMT
Who locked the doors earlier than usual, and for what reason?
I'm assuming Franz was in charge of the doors. He has no real motivation to get Liesl in trouble, but maybe he wants her to get busted so that Rolf gets in trouble? Maybe he thinks Rolf shouldn't be seeing the enemy's daughter? Maybe he just hates Rolf's smug attitude and lack of information and wants him to get fired?
Or maybe the captain locked the doors so that Liesl would get busted for her rule breaking? Then he is extra upset to see her dancing around in Maria's room, obviously having outsmarted his plan.
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 9, 2022 23:34:20 GMT
I'll go for the Captain deliberately locking Liesl out when he "didn't remember seeing her around after dinner". I always thought he was surprisingly aggressive towards her in Maria's room (actually maybe this is partly why he is so cross from the moment he enters the room, because he realises that she has been successful in giving him the slip, and up until then there was nothing he could do about it - a classic case of a man who likes being in control being out of control - not a good look!) Liesl really needs Maria at this point, and she gets her.
I love the way Maria shows her frustration and annoyance soon after this point - it makes her so human!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Aug 16, 2022 23:54:13 GMT
I think that Georg knows something is up. At the dinner table when Liesl asks to be excused, and then slithers away, he carries on like he has no idea what she is up to and doesn't even look at her. However, Maria says later in the movie that he notices everything and everyone! I suspect he knew she was up to something (maybe not what or with who?) and had Franz lock the doors and that is why he was prepared to question her about her whereabouts after dinner. (Speaking of, what does everyone think goes on after dinner that night???)
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Post by missisa on Aug 17, 2022 9:35:54 GMT
Anyone could have locked the doors earlier than usual because of the storm, assuming no one would be outside. But I like the idea of ​​Georg doing it to test Liesl. Georg's irruption into the governess's room is as aggressive as his look and seeing that his authority is being examined by everyone, he takes the opportunity to emphasize it to Liesl, knowing that perhaps he catches her giving up but slowly accepts Maria's excuse. I have always thought that Georg has always known with whom Liesl walks in his gardens after dinner. When it comes to his eldest daughter, his own house, the kid who regularly comes with telegrams, I have no doubt that Georg knows everything, no matter how indifferent he appears at dinner (recall the look of disapproval in the Abbey hideout when Liesl gasps at the sight of Rolf). Maria doesn't know it but she intuits it, perhaps due to affinity with her youth, perhaps simple feminine intuition.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 19, 2022 19:09:55 GMT
Speaking of, what does everyone think goes on after dinner that night??? Good question! What is the normal post dinner plan before Maria arrives? It is certainly not family puppet shows and guitar songs. Does the captain spend any time with his children at all besides meals? Does he allow them free time after dinner? Did they go up and read in their rooms until bedtime? My kids get so upset if there is not at least some time for legos/action figures/board games before bed, even on busy school nights. I can't imagine a household with 7 kids and no play time. No wonder they act out whenever an opportunity presents itself.
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Post by missisa on Sept 19, 2022 19:56:18 GMT
In houses with children after dinner there is always a time for the game (and the routine fights to brush the teeth!). I remember hearing my mother and aunts talk (50 years ago) about reading in their rooms or just talking all sisters together until late at night. I imagine this environment in a time without technology: books and lots of chatter (toys for the little ones). Only this time in a low voice to avoid being heard by his father, eager for discipline, who will surely spend time in the study before retiring to sleep (yes, I also imagine Georg with the smoking jacket and the liquor). If he himself admits that "bedtime is strictly observed in this house" there were probably reasons for establishing this rule: lots of play, shouting between siblings, endless fuss. Everything a lonely parent must face (or fear facing).
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 27, 2022 23:30:35 GMT
In the interwar years, it was common for families and friends to make music at home to while away the hours (especially before television). Given that Georg was apparently quite good at music, we shouldn't underestimate the big impact his banning music from the house would have made. Many homes would have had family singing and soirees around the piano, which the kids would have missed once their mother was gone.
It has occurred to me that Maria was quite alternative in her approach to the family, because most female governesses would have been sufficiently fearful of Georg to do what he said ("Bedtime must be strictly observed" etc). But the way Maria treats Liesl, she is not following his rules at all - instead she is siding with the children more, which would have made him mad, particularly as a naval commander who is used to being obeyed. I hadn't thought of her being subversive before, but she is, although in the end, it does get the two 'warring parties' to unite.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 6, 2022 3:16:32 GMT
Does Georg think that Maria knows about/approves of Liesl's relationship with Rolf? That Liesl told Maria all about it that evening and that is why Maria is covering up for her? Or does he think Maria is helping Liesl just to be kind (and in the process upset him by breaking the rules)?
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Post by missisa on Nov 9, 2022 14:48:14 GMT
I think Georg knows that Maria is aware of some possible flirtation but probably considers it a temporary, adolescent crush as far as Liesl is concerned. As for Maria, I think he instinctively trusts her to give her good advice and nothing more, it's probably an irritating topic for Georg to think that her daughter could be interested in someone as hollow as Rolf.
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 14, 2022 0:41:59 GMT
My feeling is that Georg is crabby during the thunderstorm partly because the kids are out of bed in Maria's room, but also because he has a suspicion that Maria is defensive of Liesl's activities after dinner. The trouble is that he is in a bind because he is going away, so he doesn't have the time to do anything about it, but also that he is going away for so long he can't sack her (as he has probably done with governesses before) because then there wouldn't be anyone to look after the kids.
I get the feeling he doesn't know what Liesl has been up to, another source of annoyance, because if he asks in front of the kids it will make him look like he is out of the picture (not what he likes). Hence when he catches Rolf throwing stones at the window, he roars because it explains the deception of his daughter.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 5, 2023 18:58:41 GMT
Maria tells Liesl to come sit on the bed for a talk after she puts her dress to soak in the bathtub. This doesn't happen since the other kids are already in the room by then, but what do you think this talk was going to be about? Sneaking out? Lying about it? Climbing through her window? Who she was out with? I just wondering what bothered Maria most about this situation.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 6, 2023 23:17:40 GMT
I think Maria had identified that Liesl was at a different stage to the other kids, and wanted to take the opportunity to chat with her in a more grown-up way.
In doing this, she was probably hoping to find out what Liesl was doing in the garden at night, and who she was meeting.
And who knows, perhaps she was going to use it to launch into something about the Birds and the Bees...!
After all, I can't see the Captain taking the initiative...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 12, 2023 19:31:41 GMT
I think Maria had identified that Liesl was at a different stage to the other kids, and wanted to take the opportunity to chat with her in a more grown-up way. In doing this, she was probably hoping to find out what Liesl was doing in the garden at night, and who she was meeting. And who knows, perhaps she was going to use it to launch into something about the Birds and the Bees...! After all, I can't see the Captain taking the initiative... Just the thought of the captain trying to have a "birds and the bees" talk with Liesl is literally making me LOL. I wonder who had that talk with Maria, and how that went.
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 11, 2023 22:59:27 GMT
Maybe no-one...maybe she was completely innocent when she was at the Villa von Trapp?
Is that why she left for the Abbey, because that steamy look he gave her down the hall in the party was too much for her, and she (sort of) knew what it meant?
But didn't? Or...she knew he was so experienced and she wasn't?...
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Post by thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love on Aug 15, 2023 17:23:58 GMT
Maybe no-one...maybe she was completely innocent when she was at the Villa von Trapp? Is that why she left for the Abbey, because that steamy look he gave her down the hall in the party was too much for her, and she (sort of) knew what it meant? But didn't? Or...she knew he was so experienced and she wasn't?... I tend to think that Maria knows about the birds and bees... Not that she has any experience haha, but she definitely seems to be an educated woman and spent some time in the world before trying to become a nun. If I'm remembering right, the real-life Maria had no idea what causes pregnancy until she got pregnant (which is scary to think about!), but movie Maria doesn't seem that sheltered to me. I think she knew full well what the chemistry between her and Georg was all about; it just freaked her out because a) she still thought she wanted to be a nun and b) Georg was a taken man.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Aug 18, 2023 20:49:53 GMT
Maybe no-one...maybe she was completely innocent when she was at the Villa von Trapp? Is that why she left for the Abbey, because that steamy look he gave her down the hall in the party was too much for her, and she (sort of) knew what it meant? But didn't? Or...she knew he was so experienced and she wasn't?... If I'm remembering right, the real-life Maria had no idea what causes pregnancy until she got pregnant (which is scary to think about!), Did this really happen? Yikes! I know she didn't know anything going into marriage, but wouldn't you think Georg, a father of 7, would have had this basic level conversation with her before she was actually pregnant? Or that she would have asked someone how it works? I don't understand the thought process behind leaving people in the dark when you have information that you know they need to know.
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Post by thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love on Aug 20, 2023 22:11:42 GMT
If I'm remembering right, the real-life Maria had no idea what causes pregnancy until she got pregnant (which is scary to think about!), Did this really happen? Yikes! I know she didn't know anything going into marriage, but wouldn't you think Georg, a father of 7, would have had this basic level conversation with her before she was actually pregnant? Or that she would have asked someone how it works? I don't understand the thought process behind leaving people in the dark when you have information that you know they need to know. I swear I read it somewhere, but now I can't find it! Someone who's more well-versed in the real von Trapps, tap in here haha.
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 1, 2023 22:44:48 GMT
I was thinking about what it would have been like in the film if Julie had played Maria as a total innocent...can you imagine the worldly captain sparring with someone so naive? It just wouldn't have worked!
I realised that so much of the fun and intrigue in their relationship is borne from the fact that the Maria that Julie plays is actually a little bit sassy and has plenty of spunk, enough to give the Captain a run for his money. And it is this 'game' they play which sustains our interest all the way through to their wedding. True to say, perhaps Julie couldn't have played someone truly innocent as IRL she was married with a child, so had lost all that, but it is her slightly tongue-in-cheek attitude and refusal to be overrun which makes their relationship so combative, and therefore equal.
Know what I mean?!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 6, 2023 19:09:12 GMT
I agree. Maria's feisty attitude is what draws Georg to her. She is not at all intimidated by him in regards to his parenting and household rules. I do think she is rather innocent in the romance department though. That is one on the reasons the Laendler is so rattling. She goes from confident in herself and her relationship with her employer/friend to shy and backing away within a few dance steps once the possibility of a romantic aspect of their relationship is introduced. I, personally, like that. If she played it as she was a relationship savvy worldly woman, the tension between them, and the heartbreak/confusion/realizations to come wouldn't be as powerful.
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Post by helenaserdaigle on Sept 10, 2023 20:01:55 GMT
I agree with you about Maria being innocent in the romance department. It's the superposition of her being confident in herself, and in her values, and yet unexperienced with romantic relationships, that makes their dynamic so interesting. If she'd been too innocent, the age (and experience!) gap would have played out differently, I think. She's less sheltered that the children (for example about politics), and it shows. It's also obvious that for all that she is a grown woman, she hasn't really had the chance to experience romance.
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