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Post by lemacd on Aug 15, 2022 18:00:07 GMT
 There is a lot to unpack in this scene before Maria and the children show up. I'll probably have a couple caps for it, but don't feel you have to wait to bring up observations and interpretations. Let it rip. Let's just get the riding crop issue out of the way, though. The scene unfolds with Elsa making her way to the edge of the landing alone and Georg joining her there as if he had gone off somewhere and she was waiting for him to get back. So... checking on his horses? I can imagine Elsa passing on that part of the Villa von Trapp VIP tour. Could explain the riding crop. But it is so... deliciously suggestive. Or maybe that's me and I need to get a grip. In this screen cap, the body language is interesting to me. There is something awkward about her turned to the lake, hugging herself. He's pretty confident, suave... I mean, even the horse is like, "well, who do we have here, Capt. von Sexypants!" Even their conversation at the start is a bit awkward: Elsa: This really is exciting for me, Georg. Being here with you.
Georg: Trees, lakes, you've seen them before.
Elsa: That is not what I mean, and you know it.
Georg: You mean me? I'm exciting?
Elsa: Is that so impossible?
Georg: No, just highly improbable.
Elsa: There you go, running yourself down.
George: Well, I'm a dangerous driver.
She's trying to express something, her thoughts or feelings. And his responses are rather dismissive, certainly not serious. They both know that this visit is meaningful. But Elsa seems unsure of where it is all going and he seems rather confident about it. Enjoy that feeling, Captain, it won't last much longer. Would love to hear your thoughts, I know you have them. |
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 15, 2022 23:53:06 GMT
It is amazing how the horse reflects his stance perfectly, even with the riding crop; I hadn't realised how perfect this little 'tableaux' is, because this and his rather dominating-looking stance is 'blocked' by her very static stance, then the mountain sort of ends the outline out to the right. Do you think it was all carefully planned?
Also it is strange because as you show, Elsa is the one trying to suggest positivity in their relationship, but her body language here is negative.
Georg is the one trying to wriggle out of any commitment with his evasive and derogatory remarks, but holds a very positive, domineering stance towards Elsa. Curious?!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Aug 16, 2022 0:35:50 GMT
Ok this is FUN! My response is in two parts. My first spin has to do with the crop - I've always liked to presume that it's a reference to the riding crop in "Farewell to Arms" , where Catherine always carries her late fiance's crop - symbolic of her inability to let him go. This is so much like Georg and his grief. It was the only thing that made sense to me when I was old enough to question its symbolism, and I have not pondered it since. I can see it also being representative of an attempt to portray G/E in a "City Mouse- Country Mouse" kind of light - Georg with his horses and crop and Elsa with her fancy couture and perfect hair.
Part 2: This scene is interesting because I perceive this passage as G/E being 'saucy' and playful with each other. Georg has this incredible glean in his eye while he banters with Elsa. I think there's a backstory - 'exciting being here with you'...has Elsa mocked Salzburg before? Too rural for her? She is now using it to express her interest in his world and his villa (and being here on approval?) I think there's an inside joke between them, hence the giggles etc. What is fascinating is how quickly this scene transitions from light-hearted to more serious, and Georg looks downright tense about it all and pretty much bolts away when Elsa declares that she is 'searching just like him'. She looks at him like a lost puppy dog and his inner dialog is like, "nope-nope-nope" and he heads for higher ground. For a gentleman, he seemingly forgets about letting the lady go first and he's up the terrace stairs in a hot minute.
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Post by missisa on Aug 16, 2022 8:57:21 GMT
There is sublime beauty in this screencap. We hardly talk about the mountains, but this frame and this setting are also protagonists.
I see the two of them almost shaking with nerves, Elsa looking for something that anchors her to the place, perhaps she doesn't find it in the environment until Georg appears, the only thing for which she seems willing to accept her new "rural village".
On his side, Georg bursts in as if he had been looking for the children or grooming himself after the trip and maybe he has kept Elsa waiting too long and now he wants to quickly set himself up as the good host and show her around the gardens (all this before the conversation even begins).
Then they both try to put the cards on the table (what is between us, for what purpose are we here together, what do you mean to me). They do it in a rather perfunctory and even babbling way but enough for a lady who doesn't find it romantic to be the "savior" and for a gentleman who finds it difficult to express his feelings. And it is as if Georg were also searching with his eyes for the complete drawing of his territory with Elsa inside, he studies it to see if this piece fits into his domain ("I have the feeling that I have come to be approved").
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Post by lemacd on Aug 17, 2022 17:16:25 GMT
I love everything said so far!!!
For some reason I always thought the riding crop was maybe because he came from the stables but never thought that maybe he was getting ready to go TO the stables with Elsa as part of the grand tour.
I can't imagine the cinematographer had too many happy accidents, so I would guess that the frame of the mountains and the body language was designed to match the feels of the scene. As the dialogue switches up they start to walk and so all that changes. It's definitely interesting to think about.
I forgot to title this thread... not sure I can fix it. Silly me. ETA fixed it
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 23, 2022 22:43:10 GMT
To me, Elsa seems to be coming over pretty strong here (especially as she has only just arrived at the villa).
My feeling is she trying to get Georg to respond positively to her, to get him round her little finger (like the ring she wants).
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Post by missisa on Aug 30, 2022 11:43:39 GMT
This makes me think. Elsa has come "to be approved" but in a way, she also defends her trench: I suppose she will want to see what Georg is like in his environment, how his 7 children behave, what kind of luxurious life can be led in a rural villa. I don't know, we take for granted that only Elsa is facing an exam but I think that Georg must also show his attractive side to pass Elsa's internal test, or am I splitting the hair?
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 30, 2022 22:25:34 GMT
He is certainly flirting with her (at one stage he pinches her bottom), but as soon as she takes him up on it, he is very evasive and cagey. He seems to be in two minds - confusing for poor Elsa, especially having been invited to the villa some weeks before. It makes me feels sorry for her, because she is caught out and far from home; Max is her only support, but he is really more interested in himself than her.
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Post by lemacd on Aug 31, 2022 0:12:42 GMT
He is certainly flirting with her (at one stage he pinches her bottom), but as soon as she takes him up on it, he is very evasive and cagey. He seems to be in two minds - confusing for poor Elsa, especially having been invited to the villa some weeks before. It makes me feels sorry for her, because she is caught out and far from home; Max is her only support, but he is really more interested in himself than her. so she probably wants to take that 'much less of a riddle' comment back because, yeah, he's being a bit confusing from her perspective I think. |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Aug 31, 2022 21:16:23 GMT
This lakeside chat scene is a little hard for me to watch sometimes. I can't put my finger on what exactly it is that bothers me. Maybe just that they aren't that comfortable with each other. She wants to be serious, he wants to laugh off any mention of seriousness, she finally succeeds in getting him to be serious, and it makes him so uncomfortable that he runs away. Not exactly healthy communication for two people who are going to get married and parent 7 children together. I liked your comment about body language indigoblue. Elsa is trying so hard to move the relationship forward (she is the only one asking questions), but her nervousness and insecurity show through in her posture and her responses. |
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 31, 2022 23:01:50 GMT
It has just dawned on me that one possible reason for Georg's evasive behaviour is because he has already fallen head over heels for Maria when he first met her, and he now realises that his 'marriage of convenience' to Elsa will only be a sham. This explains his awkward responses and the confused communications between them, because inside he already desperately wants to end their relationship.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 1, 2022 2:57:38 GMT
The riding crop is puzzling to me. Yes, it's fun to joke about, but it seems odd (rude?) to me that Georg would leave his honored guest waiting alone while he went to check his horses. I suppose it provides contrast - Elsa in her designer suit and Georg with his riding crop. But don't the trees, lakes, and mountains already provide the contrast of Salzburg versus Vienna? Do we see anything else from Georg that suggests that he is "country"?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 1, 2022 3:23:00 GMT
"How can you leave it as often as you do?"
What do you make of this question? Is she just fishing for him to say that he leaves his children and peaceful home so often because he can't stay away from her? It seems odd to me to point out how lovely something is and then ask the person you are with why they run away from it. It puts that person in an awkward position no matter how they answer.
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Post by lemacd on Sept 1, 2022 3:55:46 GMT
It has just dawned on me that one possible reason for Georg's evasive behaviour is because he has already fallen head over heels for Maria when he first met her, and he now realises that his 'marriage of convenience' to Elsa will only be a sham. This explains his awkward responses and the confused communications between them, because inside he already desperately wants to end their relationship. I suppose that could be a reason, I mean, he did tell her he knew when she sat on the pinecone, but I honestly don't think he was in love with her that soon. If he was, he might not be so outraged by what is about to happen, wouldn't be as quick to tell her to pack her bags, etc. Of course, maybe it is true and it scares him enough to be that angry. I dunno... my personal feeling is that he wasn't in love with her at this point. |
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Post by missisa on Sept 1, 2022 20:19:10 GMT
"How can you leave it as often as you do?" What do you make of this question? Is she just fishing for him to say that he leaves his children and peaceful home so often because he can't stay away from her? It seems odd to me to point out how lovely something is and then ask the person you are with why they run away from it. It puts that person in an awkward position no matter how they answer. I agree this question is tricky. Georg's response is particularly elegant and sophisticated, as well as sad. 'Oh pretending to be madly active I suppose. Activity suggests a life filled with purpose'. He is finally confessing his vital sadness, something is wrong despite all his comforts and his position, and Elsa is there to fix it, he seems to tell her. She doesn't seem so broken by her widowhood situation, but she also seems to have an emptiness that their money can't fill. It's a sad dialogue, underneath all the flirtation. It has just dawned on me that one possible reason for Georg's evasive behaviour is because he has already fallen head over heels for Maria when he first met her, and he now realises that his 'marriage of convenience' to Elsa will only be a sham. This explains his awkward responses and the confused communications between them, because inside he already desperately wants to end their relationship. I suppose that could be a reason, I mean, he did tell her he knew when she sat on the pinecone, but I honestly don't think he was in love with her that soon. If he was, he might not be so outraged by what is about to happen, wouldn't be as quick to tell her to pack her bags, etc. Of course, maybe it is true and it scares him enough to be that angry. I dunno... my personal feeling is that he wasn't in love with her at this point. Oh lemacd don't break the magic of the pinecone 😂😂 He has not yet realized his love but his sadness makes him evasive. I agree that he might sense something and that scares the hell out of him to think about the imminent reunion with the governess (later when he looks for the children while Max eats he nervously bends the riding crop so maybe he was also nervous to see Maria again after the encounter in the room the day of the storm.) |
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 2, 2022 13:09:50 GMT
I think it is possible that, as he said, the pinecone was the pivotal moment, but because of social norms, he was trying hard to deny the fact that he had fallen for her. Maybe his dismissing her during The Argument was his attempt to try to 'get rid of the problem' by banishing her - in the hope that he would forget about her, and it would leave him to get on better with Elsa, and so his kids would gain a mother again.
I've always thought his change of heart from his anger during The Argument to his humility and tenderness in the Apology was too rapid, and that there must have been other doubts in his mind before all that; if he was already having huge problems suppressing his affection for her from when she first arrived, to me it would explain better his acknowledgement (as I see it) that she had "already been of help. More than you know."
What else could he have meant by that?
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Post by missisa on Sept 2, 2022 13:43:41 GMT
more than you know = more than you can imagine. It is of paramount importance to him, because of how much he loves his children. Music (or Maria) is the glue that has held the broken pieces together.
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Post by lemacd on Sept 4, 2022 5:51:53 GMT
missisa lol, magic of the pinecone. you'd probably hate what I'd do to the magic of the silly whistle... this isn't the only fandom where I'm pretty much the queen of unpopular opinions (maybe not queen). but I only say they are my opinions, not fact so, you know, please like me anyway.
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Post by missisa on Sept 4, 2022 8:26:15 GMT
In fact,I like all your posts lemacd 😍😂 |
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Post by Chris&Byng on Sept 5, 2022 1:56:15 GMT
It has just dawned on me that one possible reason for Georg's evasive behaviour is because he has already fallen head over heels for Maria when he first met her, and he now realises that his 'marriage of convenience' to Elsa will only be a sham. This explains his awkward responses and the confused communications between them, because inside he already desperately wants to end their relationship. I LOVE this idea. I mean, we all know he sends her away, but just think of everything that just happened: poor first impression of the kids on Elsa, the governess is wild, Rolf shows up with a Nazi salute, Elsa tells him to chill, Max says just get along with everyone. I think anger is a normal reaction. I also think that Maria takes the blunt of his anger because in some way he knows she is up to the task or he has a sense that she is comfortable (don't the psychologists say that young children will lose their minds with the parent they know loves them most, because they feel safe?).
Maria doesn't cower or back down - if anything, his anger only fuels hers. They are formidable opponents. |
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Post by Chris&Byng on Sept 5, 2022 2:00:06 GMT
I think it is possible that, as he said, the pinecone was the pivotal moment, but because of social norms, he was trying hard to deny the fact that he had fallen for her. Maybe his dismissing her during The Argument was his attempt to try to 'get rid of the problem' by banishing her - in the hope that he would forget about her, and it would leave him to get on better with Elsa, and so his kids would gain a mother again. I've always thought his change of heart from his anger during The Argument to his humility and tenderness in the Apology was too rapid, and that there must have been other doubts in his mind before all that; if he was already having huge problems suppressing his affection for her from when she first arrived, to me it would explain better his acknowledgement (as I see it) that she had "already been of help. More than you know." What else could he have meant by that? EEEK! Love this idea about the apology...I have had similar thoughts about this scene, but you have really 'put it into words' for me. I think Maria has changed his whole world view, not just his relationship with the children. Love, loss, possibility of new love and not settling for what's socially comfortable...it's so delicious  I think he feels these things for her in this moment, but he also respects Maria and her desired profession. |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 12, 2022 19:41:43 GMT
Does anyone else have lakefront property? You can see horses/buggies on the opposite side of the lake during G&E's chat, and bicyclists behind Georg when his back is to the gazebo, so these must be public roads. The grounds are very extensive on their side of the lake. Do they have any neighbors or is this Lake Von Trapp?
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Post by Chris&Byng on Sept 12, 2022 23:31:10 GMT
There is a public path on the opposite side of the lake from Schloss Leopoldskron (Konig Ludwig Strasse). You can see it and a few nice pictures on Google Earth  +
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 14, 2022 0:08:36 GMT
Oh good. I'm glad I'm not the only person that looked this up on Google to investigate. The only other building on the lakefront in reality is where the gazebo is supposed to be fictionally. I am therefore pretending that this other building does not exist, and the Von Trapps have the whole lake to themselves.
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 14, 2022 23:09:04 GMT
I know from a post on this forum that CP had a lakefront property or two. Maybe he thought it wouldn't be so bad to live the von Trapp life!
I'll see if I can find it.
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 8, 2022 0:15:08 GMT
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Post by reverendcaptain on Dec 12, 2022 23:04:21 GMT
The house looks a little Austrian in style, doesn't it? I think he kept a little bit of Georg with him long after the role was done.
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 13, 2022 0:10:46 GMT
I believe he did buy a couple of Austrian-style jackets after he finished the film, to wear at home. Maybe he was more influenced by the role of Capt von Trapp than he would have liked to have admitted!
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Post by dontevenknowher on Dec 13, 2022 5:39:49 GMT
The house looks a little Austrian in style, doesn't it? I think he kept a little bit of Georg with him long after the role was done. This made me think of the part of his memoir where he talks about buying a house in an area he liked, only to find out upon moving in that the actor who originated the Captain on Broadway was the next door neighbor. And so the two Captains lived next door to each other 😂 |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Dec 14, 2022 19:42:09 GMT
The house looks a little Austrian in style, doesn't it? I think he kept a little bit of Georg with him long after the role was done. This made me think of the part of his memoir where he talks about buying a house in an area he liked, only to find out upon moving in that the actor who originated the Captain on Broadway was the next door neighbor. And so the two Captains lived next door to each other 😂 Hilarious! What are the odds? I wonder if they ever felt rivalry towards each other, having played the same role. Or maybe, instead, it was an easy friendship since they had so much in common. |
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I think he feels these things for her in this moment, but he also respects Maria and her desired profession. 
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