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Post by mireille on Mar 5, 2014 18:30:03 GMT
We don’t see much of Maria after the wedding. Which I always felt as a huge missing piece.
I would have loved to see more of their married life. The interaction with the children. And their romance of course.
Now we only get a few glimpses.
Yes she feels comfortable with the children, we see her shine when they call her Mother. The advice she advice to Liesl.
I would have loved to see her development.
To me in the few moments we did see she seemed hesitant.
When Georg has his disagreement with Max, you see her walking forward but then stops. Is she just letting it go or doesn’t she know if she should interfere. Then again when Georg comes back after he read the telegram, there again she stands up quickly. Again some hesitation…
She also must have had some kind of opinion about the concert.
I’m sure she still has her fire it just didn’t show, to me at least.
You might see it different.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 6, 2014 0:05:22 GMT
I definitely agree that she seems more subdued -- the way she greets the children when they come back from their honeymoon compared to the way she greeted them upon her return from the Abbey -- and the nice analysis you present above. I guess it's intentional. Did you know that in the play, when he gets the telegram, he is momentarily undecided about what to do and actually cries out, "Maria, help me!" Not gonna happen in the movie.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 0:38:19 GMT
I think in the commentary Julie talks about how the golden-suit that she is wearing shows how the character has matured since getting married etc - I'm not sure whether she was also referring to Maria's temperament as well. I guess two things to consider are, well she is now married and settled down and probably trying to act more mature and curve her "flighty ways" (didn't you write something along those lines in your honeymoon story @augiesannie?) but also considering the situation of the Anschluss occurring, I guess she would be quite shaken and hesitant etc (well I wrote her that way anyway) so maybe the other reason why she comes across quite subdued.
I don't think she has lost her confidence or anything. Think to the scene just a little later where she speaks up to support Georg in his "story" that he tells to Herr Zeller. She is very confident there and doesn't come across as someone who is now timid. Just some thoughts.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 6, 2014 0:46:42 GMT
yes, that's true, I like that spunkiness with Zeller. And it makes sense that she'd have become a little more lady like even with that walk up the aisle - you're right, I did try to write her as a little transformed. Maybe transformed on the outside, the same on the inside. I'd forgotten about that interview with Julie, got to watch that again!
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 6, 2014 1:34:03 GMT
I too would have loved to see more of them after the wedding (more of the wedding itself, too...)
I think what is happening isn't that she's more 'subdued' or lost anything, but she is trying to be a supportive partner to her husband. When she was governess, she could openly disagree or defy him. Now that they are married, those disagreements would happen behind closed doors, so they can present a united front. You can see a bit of this when she makes an attempt to convince Georg to let the children sing at the festival, ("oh, darling, couldn't they just this once") and when he reacts negatively she puts her hands up. Almost as if she is saying "okay, we can discuss this later", at least that is my take on that.
She still has her edge with Zeller, and rescues him when he starts to lose it singing "Edelweiss". And you just know she was instrumental in getting the plan for the escape to the abbey together.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 1:57:18 GMT
That was awesome utility. I love this discussion!!! I just wish there was an extra scene or two post wedding of the two of them before their escape (and wouldn't mind seeing some more kissing too)!
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Post by lemacd on Mar 6, 2014 3:26:46 GMT
in the beginning of the movie, the question is asked, "how do you solve a problem like maria?" well, i think the mellowed out maria is your answer, "find her a family, problem solved." i know that is flippant, but i think there is something there. in that song, she's a girl, now she's a woman. she was flighty as a feather, now she has an anchor. she's still fiery, she still opinionated, and she is still a force of nature (can't climb a mountain if you're not) but... she has focus.
and what everyone else has said.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2014 4:22:57 GMT
And lemacd, what you said is awesome too! The whole "how do you solve a problem like Maria" thing is brilliant! I remember as a kid just thinking why are they singing that song about how everything that is wrong with her when she is getting married. Aren't they awful? I love your idea about how all her problems have now been solved now she has found love and a family (you said it better than me but you now what I mean). |
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Post by lemacd on Mar 6, 2014 6:18:32 GMT
i was about to say "get her married, problem solved" but it sounded too much like "aw, all she needs is a man" and while men are great, particularly am fond of the one i have, i just couldn't bring myself to say that she needed a man. just couldn't. she needed a family. she needed love. it is strange that they sing that during her wedding, but it was sung as she marched down the aisle, not only toward captain yum but toward the life she was meant to live. in that respect, it makes sense.
but it is still weird. i'm not sure i would have been pleased.
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 6, 2014 14:53:03 GMT
Captain Yum. love it.
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Post by mireille on Mar 7, 2014 19:28:22 GMT
I did see the Dutch play(10 years ago) but I can't remember this. Interesting. Too bad we didn't see this, good thing we have FF
Yes that was quite obvious, it seems they also gave her a more grownup make up. But still I would loved to seen more of her personality
Yes I noticed this too actually when I was watching it last night. Loved the way she stands behind her man and wants to protect her family.
Good one, didn’t think of that! At first she was there for the children, getting their father to be a father again. But now it’s the other way around, she needs to be a mother and a wife. Definitely something to think about.
Wow! Okay let me think about this.
To the nuns she was a ‘problem’ so they wanted her to find something else. I agree with them that she would never fit in the convent. Did they want her to find love or just a different life.
Could you help me out? Not sure why they would sing that song. Never liked it in that scene. Is it because she ‘found’ her life?
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 7, 2014 19:44:48 GMT
I do think they sing 'Maria' because she has found her true calling. R & H never scored anything without a reason. That seems like the most logical one.
In my opinion, Georg asking Maria to help him decide what to do would have been totally out of character for the way CP played him. His Georg is sure of himself in that regard, and sure of his convictions, and I wouldn't believe for a second he would consider taking the commission in Bremerhaven. Calling out, "Maria, help me" after the way he's been shown speaking to Rolf, standing up to Zeller, snapping at Elsa and Max, tearing the flag? Never would he go, unless Zeller dragged him off. Even then, he'd have had to be unconscious.
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Post by lemacd on Mar 7, 2014 20:07:13 GMT
re: did they want her to find love or just a different life. i guess the answer is yes to both. the RM told her that she has a great capacity to love and needed to find a place to spend it (is that the word she used, spend? temporarily unable to remember). so i think there is an understanding that maria needs to be loved in a way that lets her express herself, her love. i'm sure RM was giving herself a few pats on the back about setting her up with the Trapp family. did she think it would turn out that way? probably not, but i think she hoped it would help maria see that she would never be satisfied as a nun. IMO.
as for the song, there had to be a reason for it. i just think it had to be a "problem solved"... not in a "here you go, captain, she's your problem now." but in a "everything is the way it is supposed to be" kind of way. a bit of a stretch maybe but... meh.
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Post by mireille on Mar 7, 2014 20:20:23 GMT
Tried to quote this ;"problem solved"... not in a "here you go, captain, she's your problem now." but in a "everything is the way it is supposed to be" kind of way. a bit of a stretch maybe but... meh.
Hahaha I understand now. I think we should thank the RM for sending Maria away!  |
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 7, 2014 21:09:02 GMT
We know RM saw it as God's will that Maria go there, she told her as much. Here they were wondering what to do about her, and lo and behold, a family is requesting a governess.
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Post by lemacd on Mar 7, 2014 22:39:25 GMT
that's very true, i forgot... she did say it was God's will that she leave them. of course, she said "leave us for a time" and "only until September" but... she couldn't well says, "it seems to be God's will that you leave us and fall in love with an engaged sea captain with seven unruly children. bring your guitar, you're going to need it. now, here's your bus fare, run along, run along."
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 7, 2014 22:54:45 GMT
that's very true, i forgot... she did say it was God's will that she leave them. of course, she said "leave us for a time" and "only until September" but... she couldn't well says, "it seems to be God's will that you leave us and fall in love with an engaged sea captain with seven unruly children. bring your guitar, you're going to need it. now, here's your bus fare, run along, run along." I think she knew it was necessary for Maria to discover for herself that she wasn't truly called to be a nun. For whatever reason, Maria made the conclusion that the only way she would find what she was searching for was at the abbey, whether that was home/family/a caring environment/feeling needed, or any combination of those and other things. RM had been around this block before, I'm sure; that, coupled with her true affection for Maria, led her to avoid the "you suck at this and will never take your vows" conversation. Then she sent her off to Capt. von Sexypants, and voila. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2014 1:13:56 GMT
Did you know that in the play, when he gets the telegram, he is momentarily undecided about what to do and actually cries out, "Maria, help me!" Not gonna happen in the movie. So I was interested in this so, while I was getting completely distracted from real life stuff this morning, I went and had a look at TSOM live! from December to see what they did with this (oh.... the acting was so bad.... I just wanted to cringe and cringe and cringe.... but anyway). Yes, this line was in the play. The scene kind of went like this (not word for word as I'm just going off memory so there could be mistakes but you get the idea). G: There've offered me a commission. I don't know... It would be nice to have a ship under me again and it was be good to know that you (Maria) and the children would be safe M: whatever you decide G: Oh I don't know. I'm not sure about whether I can do it. Maria. Help me! [pause] G: No, I think I've made up my mind... we'll leave. I'm really glad they changed this in the movie. There was never any question from the movie Georg what to do about joining the Nazis. He was just so certain of the path to take. Putting all the bad acting aside from the live version, it makes Georg's character so much weaker and the Maria in the play feel so much weaker as well, like she didn't have any opinion but would just go along with whatever. So going back to movie Maria (by far and away THE BEST), while she didn't say it in so many words only about his commission "I knew something like this would happen, I just didn't think it would be so soon", her actions and look of complete trust in Georg as they walked to the centre of the foyer then followed on by her standing up to Zeller, her "rescue" of Georg during Edelweiss, then in the graveyard scene showed more her support of him and his decisions than words ever could. |
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 8, 2014 2:31:41 GMT
Beautifully stated, charleybec.
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Post by lemacd on Mar 8, 2014 2:42:03 GMT
Did you know that in the play, when he gets the telegram, he is momentarily undecided about what to do and actually cries out, "Maria, help me!" Not gonna happen in the movie. So I was interested in this so, while I was getting completely distracted from real life stuff this morning, I went and had a look at TSOM live! from December to see what they did with this (oh.... the acting was so bad.... I just wanted to cringe and cringe and cringe.... but anyway). Yes, this line was in the play. The scene kind of went like this (not word for word as I'm just going off memory so there could be mistakes but you get the idea). G: There've offered me a commission. I don't know... It would be nice to have a ship under me again and it was be good to know that you (Maria) and the children would be safe M: whatever you decide G: Oh I don't know. I'm not sure about whether I can do it. Maria. Help me! [pause] G: No, I think I've made up my mind... we'll leave. I'm really glad they changed this in the movie. There was never any question from the movie Georg what to do about joining the Nazis. He was just so certain of the path to take. Putting all the bad acting aside from the live version, it makes Georg's character so much weaker and the Maria in the play feel so much weaker as well, like she didn't have any opinion but would just go along with whatever. So going back to movie Maria (by far and away THE BEST), while she didn't say it in so many words only about his commission "I knew something like this would happen, I just didn't think it would be so soon", her actions and look of complete trust in Georg as they walked to the centre of the foyer then followed on by her standing up to Zeller, her "rescue" of Georg during Edelweiss, then in the graveyard scene showed more her support of him and his decisions than words ever could. thanks for sharing this. maria's line: ... i just didn't think it would be so soon. shows me that they have talked about it and she understood the implications. i don't think he was explaining when he said it would be fatal, etc. i never got that it was anything but reiteration of the situation. the only time she wavered was when he said they would cross the mountain on foot "but the children." but that was natural, i think. not really a protest. being heard, but not contradicting. post wedding maria is interesting. she was so independent before... it seems like she has more peace with a partner. i don't think she is a better maria, just different. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2014 2:45:09 GMT
I'm loving this discussion, getting inside Maria's head etc. (and I'm thinking of my next few chapters of ALAWT when I say this too)
Yes, only natural to think of the children, especially the younger ones when thinking of going across the mountains. I mean I would too, although I would be more like, I can't do it, it is a MOUNTAIN Georg, are you serious, what the? Just because she has a different opinion or questions something doesn't mean that she doesn't support him. Also, I agree with you lemacd, just a different Maria after the wedding.
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 8, 2014 2:55:39 GMT
She's at peace, because she's found her life.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2014 4:08:09 GMT
sigh..... and don't forget who she IS married to! Captain von HOT sexy-pants!!!!! who wouldn't be happy with that?
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Post by paula on Mar 8, 2014 7:33:44 GMT
Right! Who wouldn't be happy with that gorgeous man!!!!! (Look at my avatar to see who she gets in bed with every night!)
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 8, 2014 12:00:49 GMT
Don't need to tell me twice.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 8, 2014 13:32:09 GMT
I do think they sing 'Maria' because she has found her true calling. R & H never scored anything without a reason. That seems like the most logical one. In my opinion, Georg asking Maria to help him decide what to do would have been totally out of character for the way CP played him. His Georg is sure of himself in that regard, and sure of his convictions, and I wouldn't believe for a second he would consider taking the commission in Bremerhaven. Calling out, "Maria, help me" after the way he's been shown speaking to Rolf, standing up to Zeller, snapping at Elsa and Max, tearing the flag? Never would he go, unless Zeller dragged him off. Even then, he'd have had to be unconscious. yes, agree, it's one of the things that probably made CP feel that the Captain had been a "cardboard character." |
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 8, 2014 13:37:43 GMT
Another thing about the play that is so relevant here: in the play, when the idea of going over the mountains comes up, Maria says, "we both know those mountains, we can do it!" and it's the Captain who says, "but the children!" and Maria says, "we'll help them" and then the stage directions have HER leading them over the mountains. Notice the switch in the movie. Maria says, "but the children" and he says "we'll help them" and then HE leads them over the mountains. Can't imagine CP doing it otherwise.
I wanted to say about the "how do you solve" singing during the wedding, that when I was younger, I also saw it as a bit of a nose-thumb at Sister Berthe. Like, "she isn't a problem, she just hasn't been in the right setting before!" I also agree with other things that have been said.
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 8, 2014 13:53:27 GMT
Another thing about the play that is so relevant here: in the play, when the idea of going over the mountains comes up, Maria says, "we both know those mountains, we can do it!" and it's the Captain who says, "but the children!" and Maria says, "we'll help them" and then the stage directions have HER leading them over the mountains. Notice the switch in the movie. Maria says, "but the children" and he says "we'll help them" and then HE leads them over the mountains. Can't imagine CP doing it otherwise. I wanted to say about the "how do you solve" singing during the wedding, that when I was younger, I also saw it as a bit of a nose-thumb at Sister Berthe. Like, "she isn't a problem, she just hasn't been in the right setting before!" I also agree with other things that have been said. YES---and it not only is consistent with the way CP/EL rewrote the part, but it more fully completes the arc his character makes. As I believe I've mentioned in another thread, it is so important to see how Maria has helped him make that complete change of running FROM his family to once again embracing them and protecting them. And yeah, Sr. Berthe. LOL |
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 10, 2014 2:06:06 GMT
I've been thinking about this. I know you didn't want to say 'she needed a man', and I think that's true. I think she needed *this* man. Soul mates and all that. I'm not sure she'd have found her life with anyone else.
Maybe I'm just a sap for happy endings.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2014 3:12:38 GMT
Sap for happy endings is fine. I love happy endings!
I agree with you about she needed "this" man (and don't we all!).
Seriously though, I think it went both ways really. I mean Georg "needed" Maria specifically. I'm sure we've all written into our stories at one point or another about how he was lucky enough to find a second love that matched his first love with Agathe but I just wanted to think on this point. what was Georg's life before Maria? He was distant from his kids, went away a lot and while he had a relationship with Elsa, it was really a mere "distraction". A distraction from his true purpose of being reunited with his family. Elsa couldn't do that, only Maria could open his eyes to see how he had shut the world out and pushed aside his children. Only she could reunite them and bring his life back to him, and only she could be a true support of him when it came down to it with all the political stuff. Can't really see Elsa doing that!! He "needed" her and no one else. Soul mates!! A really good phrase!!
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