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Post by augiesannie on Aug 15, 2013 1:09:42 GMT
Maria tells the RM , "That's what's been torturing me. I was there on God's errand. To have asked for his love would have been wrong."
OK, I'm willing to believe she felt guilty. But I don't think that's the major cause of her distress. She's got it bad for Our Man, and if she didn't think it was hopeless before her little chat with Elsa, she did afterward.
I guess she's not going to admit this part to the RM. The question is, is Maria lying to herself?
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Post by ForeverJulie on Aug 15, 2013 3:33:45 GMT
I don't think Maria fully acknowledged her feelings to the Captain before Elsa ever so kindly pointed them out to her. It's possible that she's never been in love before. After all she's in her early 20s, has spent at least a few years in the abbey and maybe some time before that in school. She says that when she was little she would look over into the abbey and "long to be one of them" which means she probably didn't have all that many romantic daydreams about getting married or possibly even dating boys. So, it's possible that while it would be easy for her to see that she and the Captain get along well or agree on a lot of important matters, it might really just not occur to her that she could have feelings for him. If she does acknowledge to herself her attraction for the Captain, she might have put it off by saying "well obviously I can objectively observe that he is an attractive person". Then all of a sudden (not to us, but to her) Elsa goes "OMG YOU TOTALLY LOVE HIM" and inside it all clicks into place and she can try to deny it but now the thought is there and inner Maria is now saying "yesss, this makes so much sense, we totally do love the Captain...oh SHIT...this wasn't supposed to happen". Freak out. Run away. Cry to Rev. Mother.
Short answer: yes, she's lying to herself, but some of it also comes with being a tad naive and not wholly living in the secular world.
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Post by lemacd on Aug 15, 2013 3:57:20 GMT
you're right... it's not the whole truth. what's torturing her is all that lack of air when he looks at her.
the RM asked if she thought the Captain knew how she felt... and the "i don't know, i don't know" part is so... i love that. i think that is the real torture. she wants him to know, but she doesn't. you know? i often think that she hopes he knows, validates her emotions (who likes to feel like a total fool?) and takes the matter out of her hands...
... and then, maybe not. she had it all worked out. be a nun. be safe. what's love got to do with it (got to do with it?)
the fanfic writer in me imagines that maria never thought of herself as a woman. no, i don't mean that, i mean... you know what i mean. OK, i finally got around to watching the original german version of TSOM and in the beginning when she is whistling and is told to stop, she suggests it should be ok to whistle if it is a religious song. the nun's response is that girls shouldn't whistle at all. i imagine that she has been told things like that all her life (girls don't climb trees, slide on banisters, etc) ... you can imagine the implications. i'm not saying she is conscious of it or that she had that in mind at all when she decided to be a nun.
to summarize a pretty convoluted answer: it may be true, but it isn't the whole truth. she's freaking out because she's discovering that she is more feminine than anyone has ever given her credit for being up til now.
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Post by lemacd on Aug 15, 2013 3:57:51 GMT
Ok, i got some of the dialogue out of order... but i still love the 'i don't know, i don't know' part.
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 16, 2013 0:52:28 GMT
Agree with both of you. I love what you say because:
1. Forever reminded me of that moment during the Edelweiss when he bows, smiles, nods in her direction, you know? She gives him a dewy, eager grin in return. . Some writers refer to this as a steamy gaze - I think I might have been one of them - but actually I always saw it as slightly more innocent admiration, teetering on the pre-Laendler edge of something deeper. Elsa of course, sees it coming during the Edelweiss. But I don't think Maria gets it until Elsa points it out. 2. I love that "I don't know! I don't know!" moment , but not till now have I been inspired so much by it. You nailed it Lemacd! There are a lot of complicated wishes and feelings in there. I have the notion that Maria might be the kind of person who has such strong feelings that she can't tolerate ambiguity, she needs things resolved right now. Maybe afraid of pain. 3. And the theme of Maria beginning to wonder what, exactly, God's will is for her, of what's her true path in life, is at the heart of my new story, though it didn't start that way. She has always rejected love and marriage for various reasons, and the garden is where she's forced to reconsider. So I loved the point about the film.
What do others think?
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 18, 2013 23:42:02 GMT
another topic I hope others will join in on!
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 19, 2013 23:06:09 GMT
My tuppence-worth:
I love that question of Lemacd's about whether she thinks of herself as a woman, because until your mind and body decide to misbehave on your first falling in love, you think you have total and single-minded control over yourself (like you do as a child), and her choice was to devote her life to God at the convent. It's only when things go wildly out of control that you realise your mind and body have a mind of their own, and hey presto you've changed into a woman, so you might as well give in.
So no, I don't think she did think of herself as a woman until a certain gentleman showed her how...
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Post by lemacd on Aug 19, 2013 23:53:21 GMT
yes... if you're grow up a tomboy, you hear the 'boys don't like girls who like sports' and all that and can get a rather sad impression that you aren't feminine enough for boys to take interest (this was true when i was growing up... i think times have changed so go ahead and disagree if you want). it all contributes to maria's 'can this be happening to me?' feeling, i think. but i suppose that line needs it's own thread, no?
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 20, 2013 1:23:35 GMT
oooh... this is really going to help with my story. Thanks guys! Had forgotten the tomboy angle.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 23, 2020 15:26:58 GMT
I think RM is genuinely taken aback when Maria says "I can't face him again." Maria is too much of a tomboy to fall in love right? RM knows that she doesn't belong in the convent, but I bet she wasn't expecting her to fall for a rich, famous, national hero with seven kids.
Sr. Margaretta has to be thinking "Please don't remember that I'm here. Please don't remember that I'm here. Please don't...Drat!"
"I don't know. I don't know!" is torture for me. She is so conflicted. What is RM thinking at this point?? Does she think Georg could be setting Maria up to use her? He is honorable of course, but she has to wonder. I don't think Maria has ever been in love. I like the idea earlier in this thread that she doesn't even really think of herself as a woman. If her life path was always to be a nun, she would never have tried to look or act a certain way to get a man's attention. Ironically, this is what attracted Gerog to her in the first place. I get the RM wants Maria to sort this out and not just take her vows to avoid potential heartbreak, but do you think she thinks Georg and Maria can ever work? Or is this just a life lesson that you can't leave problems unresolved?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 30, 2020 15:06:50 GMT
Did RM have to send a postulant? The nuns that had taken their vows were cloistered, right? So, they couldn't leave even if they wanted to? I'm just trying to think why she picked Maria. The captain would have contacted RM in desperation, I'm sure fully expecting someone with the utmost discipline to be sent to him. But he must know they are cloistered too, and that he'd be getting a young nun in training (that still had the option to leave the abbey)? Do you think RM picked Maria because she thought the captain needed something different than what he thought he needed since his previous attempts had failed? Or so that Maria could get some life experience and realize she was not suited for the abbey? Or just to get her out of everyone's way for awhile? Or maybe some combination of all of these?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 30, 2020 15:36:15 GMT
Ok, I'm obsessing about the conversation in RM office today.
RM seems surprised that she left on her own and wasn't sent back. Was she expecting Maria to get fired? I never liked that she left Maria in seclusion for so long, but I guess if she thought Maria was just praying about how her undisciplined ways got her fired, then there was no rush to make her talk.
I love the "Frightened?! Were they unkind to you?" line. It's like, wait a second, I thought you got yourself into trouble. Are you telling me they hurt you?? Because hell hath no fury like a mother who trusted a man with her daughter and he hurt her.
What does "to have asked for his love would have been wrong" mean? I get that she feels guilty being attracted to Georg because nuns don't do such things. But was she ever going to ask for his love?
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 31, 2020 0:13:20 GMT
I think the RM sent Maria because she wasn't convinced she would make a good nun. Looking after kids would have been more interesting and allowed Maria more experience of life before making her big decision about whether to try again for the novitiate.
Presumably she also sent Maria because the kids would find her fun, not realising that it would be the Captain who would find her the most fun! Can you imagine any of the other nuns going instead of her?
So when Maria comes back, I think the RM actually thinks they have been mistreating her in some way, which would make her guilty about sending her there in the first place. Maybe when she recovers from this idea, it colours her decision-making, and drives her towards making Maria go back 'to find out God's will'. Also, she wouldn't want a love-crazed postulant trying to take her vows, especially when it was love for a local war hero. I can see the RM warming to the idea of sending Maria back, I think as she clicks that the Captain is a widower in need of a wife, and the children a mother...and her problem solved...
'To have asked for his love' has always puzzled me too. Maybe she is going through Elsa's bedroom scene in her mind, telling herself that she never sought the Captain's love (so didn't trangress her commitment to God), so it wasn't her fault things had turned out that way. Presumably she say it out loud so that the RM gets the message 1) what the problem is and 2)it isn't Maria's fault. Seems to have worked!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 28, 2020 14:25:19 GMT
she wouldn't want a love-crazed postulant trying to take her vows, especially when it was love for a local war hero. I can see the RM warming to the idea of sending Maria back, I think as she clicks that the Captain is a widower in need of a wife, and the children a mother...and her problem solved... I agree that RM would not want Maria to take her vows if she thought Maria was at all conflicted about what her life path should be. I understand why she makes Maria go back. What makes RM think the captain has honorable intentions though? Just that he is a fine man and a brave one? He does need a wife and the children need a mother, but what if he was just going to use Maria and marry the baroness to solve those problems? I guess RM is hoping Maria is smart enough to figure this out and decide that the Von Trapps are not God's will for her before things went too far?
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sandra
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Post by sandra on Apr 28, 2020 18:20:47 GMT
What does "to have asked for his love would have been wrong" mean? I get that she feels guilty being attracted to Georg because nuns don't do such things. But was she ever going to ask for his love?
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sandra
Junior Member
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Post by sandra on Apr 28, 2020 20:07:46 GMT
What does "to have asked for his love would have been wrong" mean? I get that she feels guilty being attracted to Georg because nuns don't do such things. But was she ever going to ask for his love? In my mind, I always interpreted those words as a slightly convoluted way to say "it was too much to expect him to love me." In that way, I'm exactly like Maria. I've never been attractive, and I had to struggle with overweight since I was 13 years old, which happens to be the age when hormones kick in and you start seeing boys "that way." I suppose that right from the very beginning, I removed myself mentally from the "market", meaning that I never expected a man to notice me, so I never looked at them as potential "boyfriends." They were girls with dicks, if you get my meaning. In Maria's case, she knows that Georg likes her. I mean, duh, right? He smiles at her constantly, he's good, kind and caring. He shows interest in her life, he's gentlemanly, considerate and protective of her and her feelings. So, she can safely say that he's very fond of her. But the moment Elsa opens her eyes and makes her realize that what she's feeling for him isn't just friendship, affection or love, but she's actually in love with him, she's not only facing a totally unexpected situation, but an emotion she has no tools to deal with. Her life's path which had seemed crystal clear up to that moment, has been altered forever; and it's also at that moment that she realizes she can't be a nun anymore, as her heart belongs to Georg irrevocably now.
At the same time, she takes for a fact that Georg and Elsa will marry. She doesn't doubt that fact for a second, so the only thing she can do now is remove herself from the picture, not because she believes she might be a "temptation" for Georg, but because the whole dynamics of her relationship with him (true friends who have the deepest respect for each other) has changed. She can never be alone with him and look at him the same way again. The clean, childlike innocence that had been present in their interactions is gone for good - at least on her side. Besides, he's an aristocrat, so above her station; he has to marry an equal. It's okay to be appreciated as a friend, as a valuable member of his staff; but as a mate, a wife? Impossible. How could she possibly expect to be loved as more than that?
It's amazing how differently people interpret the same scene, depending on their own personal history. The same dialogue, the same acting, and we still see different things. I never believed that Maria took Elsa's words "he thinks he's in love with you." "The Captain would hardly be a man if he didn't notice you." "He'll get over it soon enough, I should think. Men do, you know?" in the way Elsa intended her to. She thinks that Elsa is overreacting and exaggerating Georg's perceived feelings towards her because she thinks men simply don't (can't) see her "that way," just as she never did before. I think she's terrified that he "might" come to see her that way now that her true feelings for him have been brought to the surface, and he might get those "vibes" from her. Her only option is run to her cell in the Abbey. In my mind, I think she was terrified when the RM sent her back to sort out her feelings for Georg and find out whether he felt the same for her or not. When the children tell her their father's going to be married, it only reinforces her belief that Georg never even began to see her "that way", as the Baroness implied. Why would he? What could he possibly find remotely attractive "that way" about her? She's heartbroken beyond belief, but she's also found a way to make peace with her situation. It's hopeless, and she'd better find a way to deal with it and a way to move on, since being a nun isn't a choice anymore.
Whenever I picture her in that frame of mind, the gazebo scene becomes "THE love scene", above any other in the history of movies. When Georg turns his head and says "You can't marry someone when you're in love with someone else, can you?" it must have been a TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE SHOCK for Maria. And I LOVE putting myself in her shoes right then. To feel worthy, to know that your love is returned in spades, just as desperately and passionately... And he's holding your chin, and bringing you closer and closer while looking into your eyes... THUD!
I'm sorry, I just got carried away here... And sorry about my confusing way of explaining myself. English isn't my first language. Also, I don't know what the hell happened the first time I tried to post this reply. I don't know how to delete it.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 28, 2020 23:28:57 GMT
That was wonderful! More, please...your English is perfect,and very expressive.
I'm not sure you can delete a post, but you can edit out stuff by pressing the EDIT button in the top right hand corner.
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 29, 2020 15:10:57 GMT
Indeed an excellent and well-written post!! Sandra, please write more often!! It is so nice to read different perspectives of the same story!!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 29, 2020 16:42:24 GMT
Oh sandra! Wonderful post! And I hope you have found your captain in your life that appreciates you just as you are! You are right, we all interpret these scenes based on our own experiences. That is one of the reasons I love this forum, to see such different viewpoints. I always assume Maria to be very naive and inexperienced, mostly because this is how I was at her age. I understand and am intrigued by your position of Maria feeling like no man could ever think of her romantically. In a way, this makes talking very casually with the captain acceptable. She can smile genuinely, offer compliments on his children, ask him to sing/play Edelweiss, and never consider that this would be seen as flirting with him, because she knows he does not think of her like that. These actions would just be signs of friendship and respect in her mind. She can also easily view his kindness towards her as friendship, as to view it as him liking her romantically would be absurd. He is marrying the baroness, and she is not girlfriend material for him, so her whole relationship with him is safe. She knows that she likes him romantically, but that's just in her own fantasy world, so this would not impact her real life relationship with him at all. Then, Elsa drops the bomb that it is obvious that she is in love with him, and her fantasy world is ruined. Is she embarrassed that the captain knows about her feelings and he will feel uncomfortable around her now because he doesn't feel the same way? Or does she think he would engage her romantically out of some sort of obligation or pity, never intending to be with her long term? I need more Sandra! Your English is very clear. I'd love to hear more about what you think everyone is feeling emotionally in the scene when she comes back and in the gazebo scene. By the way, I think the gazebo scene is THE love scene of all time too!!
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 29, 2020 19:06:22 GMT
I'd love to hear more about what you think everyone is feeling emotionally in the scene when she comes back and in the gazebo scene. By the way, I think the gazebo scene is THE love scene of all time too!! When she comes backRM has told her to go back and find out if the captain is indeed in love with her. She has acknowledged her feelings for him, so she has expectations and hopes. Until then, she imagined her life as a nun at the abbey, and now a whole new world opens in front of her, to be a married woman next to the captain and be a mother for his seven children. When she is told that the captain is getting married to the baroness, all these hopes get crashed immediately. There is no room left for her, false hopes, false expectations. She must leave again, not because of her fear now that the captain loves her but because of the reality, he marries another woman. at the gazeboShe has accepted that the captain marries the baroness. she puts everything in order in her mind. She strolls around the garden in order to think and clear her mind. And there he comes and asks her to stay, everything was not easy during her absence and everything will go again wrong if she leaves. The captain tells her that no engagement exists, no baroness there. He is in love with her, he loves her. I do not think she felt not enough for the captain, less attractive than the baroness, or that she did not deserve his attention and love. I do not think she had ever such thoughts because if she had thoughts about men, how to be attractive to men, or which women men like, etc., she would not have decided to become a nun. I believe she saw herself as the wanna-be nun who was working as a governess because god wanted it and by helping the children and the captain she accomplished her duty. She was supposed to be in love with god, be passionate about accomplishing his will, not fall for a man who happens to be her employer. So when the baroness told her that she is in love with him, she feels she has no right to ask for his love because she does not have the freedom to do such a thing, her life is devoted to the worship of god. She is not a free woman able to pick a free man to love and care. She felt she failed in her task, I believe. She failed to be a good postulant at the abbey because she was too vivid and bright, she was sent back to world for a duty to fulfill , she did her best and again she messed it up. She goes back to the abbey, RM tells her to return to the villa and find out the truth, she fills herself with confidence and hope for the new life ahead, but gets devastated by the terrible news about the engagement.
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Post by warmwoollenmittens on Apr 29, 2020 21:49:17 GMT
When Maria says “I was there on God’s errand. To have asked for his love would have been wrong!” I always assumed she meant that asking GOD for the captain’s love would have been wrong.
She is there to fulfil God’s purpose. To dare to hope, to dare to ASK God for Georg’s love in return, would be to forsake the lord entirely.
But she can no longer suppress the deepest wishes of her heart. And so she flees. “I couldn’t stay, I just couldn’t.”
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Post by NatureCalleth on Apr 29, 2020 23:07:12 GMT
What does "to have asked for his love would have been wrong" mean? I get that she feels guilty being attracted to Georg because nuns don't do such things. But was she ever going to ask for his love? In my mind, I always interpreted those words as a slightly convoluted way to say "it was too much to expect him to love me." In that way, I'm exactly like Maria. I've never been attractive, and I had to struggle with overweight since I was 13 years old, which happens to be the age when hormones kick in and you start seeing boys "that way." I suppose that right from the very beginning, I removed myself mentally from the "market", meaning that I never expected a man to notice me, so I never looked at them as potential "boyfriends." They were girls with dicks, if you get my meaning. In Maria's case, she knows that Georg likes her. I mean, duh, right? He smiles at her constantly, he's good, kind and caring. He shows interest in her life, he's gentlemanly, considerate and protective of her and her feelings. So, she can safely say that he's very fond of her. But the moment Elsa opens her eyes and makes her realize that what she's feeling for him isn't just friendship, affection or love, but she's actually in love with him, she's not only facing a totally unexpected situation, but an emotion she has no tools to deal with. Her life's path which had seemed crystal clear up to that moment, has been altered forever; and it's also at that moment that she realizes she can't be a nun anymore, as her heart belongs to Georg irrevocably now.
At the same time, she takes for a fact that Georg and Elsa will marry. She doesn't doubt that fact for a second, so the only thing she can do now is remove herself from the picture, not because she believes she might be a "temptation" for Georg, but because the whole dynamics of her relationship with him (true friends who have the deepest respect for each other) has changed. She can never be alone with him and look at him the same way again. The clean, childlike innocence that had been present in their interactions is gone for good - at least on her side. Besides, he's an aristocrat, so above her station; he has to marry an equal. It's okay to be appreciated as a friend, as a valuable member of his staff; but as a mate, a wife? Impossible. How could she possibly expect to be loved as more than that?
It's amazing how differently people interpret the same scene, depending on their own personal history. The same dialogue, the same acting, and we still see different things. I never believed that Maria took Elsa's words "he thinks he's in love with you." "The Captain would hardly be a man if he didn't notice you." "He'll get over it soon enough, I should think. Men do, you know?" in the way Elsa intended her to. She thinks that Elsa is overreacting and exaggerating Georg's perceived feelings towards her because she thinks men simply don't (can't) see her "that way," just as she never did before. I think she's terrified that he "might" come to see her that way now that her true feelings for him have been brought to the surface, and he might get those "vibes" from her. Her only option is run to her cell in the Abbey. In my mind, I think she was terrified when the RM sent her back to sort out her feelings for Georg and find out whether he felt the same for her or not. When the children tell her their father's going to be married, it only reinforces her belief that Georg never even began to see her "that way", as the Baroness implied. Why would he? What could he possibly find remotely attractive "that way" about her? She's heartbroken beyond belief, but she's also found a way to make peace with her situation. It's hopeless, and she'd better find a way to deal with it and a way to move on, since being a nun isn't a choice anymore.
Whenever I picture her in that frame of mind, the gazebo scene becomes "THE love scene", above any other in the history of movies. When Georg turns his head and says "You can't marry someone when you're in love with someone else, can you?" it must have been a TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE SHOCK for Maria. And I LOVE putting myself in her shoes right then. To feel worthy, to know that your love is returned in spades, just as desperately and passionately... And he's holding your chin, and bringing you closer and closer while looking into your eyes... THUD!
I'm sorry, I just got carried away here... And sorry about my confusing way of explaining myself. English isn't my first language. Also, I don't know what the hell happened the first time I tried to post this reply. I don't know how to delete it. I know exactly how you feel. Except, I'm probably much younger than you are, English IS my first language, and I'm a transman, so bit of some differences there. But I know how you feel in regards to always seeing yourself as an unattractive, unlovable garbage can of a human. Because that's how I see myself all the time. Even when other people deny it and say that I'm attractive, I just can't see it for myself. I've never had a real relationship, in person, and one that lasted long enough to truly matter. I've basically talked myself into a corner. That it's never going to happen, that I'm not worthy of it, and that I should never try because my affections will never be returned. I would kill for a wife and children, to be that Naval Captain with the Villa in Austria, but I can't have it and I will never have it for many reasons. Also, English is a terrible language, you're lucky it's not your first language because I wish my first was German. English is a horrible language, it has the most awful rules ever, and it sucks. This is coming from someone who has had to speak this god awful language for 19 years. *spits* I SPIT ON YOU ENGLISH! I SPIT ON YOU!
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sandra
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by sandra on May 1, 2020 3:47:57 GMT
reverendcaptain wrote: >Oh sandra! Wonderful post! And I hope you have found your captain in your life that appreciates you just as you are! Thank you! And no, I didn't find my captain. In the end, I realized I'm not "wife" material and I'm very happy being single. I have my family and half a dozen GOOD friends I adore. And I also have lots of free time to write fanfiction, especially now with the quarantine. In fact, last week I started writing another TSOM one-shot I hope to finish, for a change. >I understand and am intrigued by your position of Maria feeling like no man could ever think of her romantically. In a way, this makes talking very casually with the captain acceptable. She can smile genuinely, offer compliments on his children, ask him to sing/play Edelweiss, and never consider that this would be seen as flirting with him, because she knows he does not think of her like that. These actions would just be signs of friendship and respect in her mind. She can also easily view his kindness towards her as friendship, as to view it as him liking her romantically would be absurd. He is marrying the baroness, and she is not girlfriend material for him, so her whole relationship with him is safe. She knows that she likes him romantically, but that's just in her own fantasy world, so this would not impact her real life relationship with him at all. Then, Elsa drops the bomb that it is obvious that she is in love with him, and her fantasy world is ruined. Is she embarrassed that the captain knows about her feelings and he will feel uncomfortable around her now because he doesn't feel the same way? Or does she think he would engage her romantically out of some sort of obligation or pity, never intending to be with her long term? I need more Sandra! Personally, I think that at no time Maria thinks about Georg romantically - meaning holding her hand, caressing her and kissing her... that type of romantic fantasy. I think that whatever fantasies she has, are unformed, vague. It's a feeling that overwhelms her whenever they're together and Georg looks at her or smiles at her. And it all comes to a head during the Läendler. That's when it becomes a volcano that can't be brushed aside anymore. She can't put a name to it, she doesn't understand what it is. It's like when your stomach hurts, and rumbles, and you feel nauseous and weak, and you don't understand what's wrong with you, and then someone comes along and tells you: "You're not sick, dummy, you're just HUNGRY!" I'd put it this way: Maria had all the symptoms but she didn't know what she had until Baroness Schraeder gave her the diagnosis: "you're in love. That's what those "symptoms" mean." After that, Maria's world collapses. She was supposed to be a nun and devote her life to God. And now, she hasn't only failed her vocation and God by falling in love with a man, she's endangered Georg's relationship with Elsa. Georg has unconsciously picked up the vibes she didn't know she was sending. Answering your question, I totally choose option one: she leaves because she's tremendously embarrassed and fearful that Georg will eventually pick up on her true feelings for him. It would be the most uncomfortable situation for both of them.
>Your English is very clear. I'd love to hear more about what you think everyone is feeling emotionally in the scene when she comes back and in the gazebo scene. By the way, I think the gazebo scene is THE love scene of all time too!! Oh jeeez, if I started writing what I think about all that, I wouldn't write a message but a whole dissertation. But the short version would be: Georg: "I made the worst mistake of my life. I have to rectify the situation before it's too late and I cause more harm to someone I love dearly and someone I'm in love with, with every fibre of my being." Maria: "I'm a fool. He not only doesn't love me, but now I have to stay here until September, struggling to hide my feelings when my heart is broken. My vocation is destroyed and I have nowhere to go, both literally and figuratively." Elsa: "Just when I thought I had him safe... This isn't going to work, unless I display all my female charms to try and keep him, and even then there's no guarantee." Children: "YAY, Maria's back! Everything's right in the world. And it'll be absolutely perfect if Baroness Schraeder doesn't marry Father."
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Post by emilia78 on May 1, 2020 20:09:28 GMT
Personally, I think that at no time Maria thinks about Georg romantically - meaning holding her hand, caressing her and kissing her... that type of romantic fantasy. I think that whatever fantasies she has, are unformed, vague. It's a feeling that overwhelms her whenever they're together and Georg looks at her or smiles at her. And it all comes to a head during the Läendler. That's when it becomes a volcano that can't be brushed aside anymore. She can't put a name to it, she doesn't understand what it is. It's like when your stomach hurts, and rumbles, and you feel nauseous and weak, and you don't understand what's wrong with you, and then someone comes along and tells you: "You're not sick, dummy, you're just HUNGRY!" I'd put it this way: Maria had all the symptoms but she didn't know what she had until Baroness Schraeder gave her the diagnosis: "you're in love. That's what those "symptoms" mean." After that, Maria's world collapses. She was supposed to be a nun and devote her life to God. And now, she hasn't only failed her vocation and God by falling in love with a man, she's endangered Georg's relationship with Elsa. Georg has unconsciously picked up the vibes she didn't know she was sending. she leaves because she's tremendously embarrassed and fearful that Georg will eventually pick up on her true feelings for him. It would be the most uncomfortable situation for both of them. wow again!!!!! excellent interpretation!!!!! However, Georg also seems to feel bewildered when seeing Maria sending the vibes. Like after the goodnight farewell show of the children, when Max tries to persuade Maria to stay at dinner and Georg tries to be indifferent as Elsa is watching them....
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 5, 2020 21:10:01 GMT
What does "to have asked for his love would have been wrong" mean? I get that she feels guilty being attracted to Georg because nuns don't do such things. But was she ever going to ask for his love? In my mind, I always interpreted those words as a slightly convoluted way to say "it was too much to expect him to love me." In that way, I'm exactly like Maria. I've never been attractive, and I had to struggle with overweight since I was 13 years old, which happens to be the age when hormones kick in and you start seeing boys "that way." I suppose that right from the very beginning, I removed myself mentally from the "market", meaning that I never expected a man to notice me, so I never looked at them as potential "boyfriends." They were girls with dicks, if you get my meaning. In Maria's case, she knows that Georg likes her. I mean, duh, right? He smiles at her constantly, he's good, kind and caring. He shows interest in her life, he's gentlemanly, considerate and protective of her and her feelings. So, she can safely say that he's very fond of her. But the moment Elsa opens her eyes and makes her realize that what she's feeling for him isn't just friendship, affection or love, but she's actually in love with him, she's not only facing a totally unexpected situation, but an emotion she has no tools to deal with. Her life's path which had seemed crystal clear up to that moment, has been altered forever; and it's also at that moment that she realizes she can't be a nun anymore, as her heart belongs to Georg irrevocably now.
At the same time, she takes for a fact that Georg and Elsa will marry. She doesn't doubt that fact for a second, so the only thing she can do now is remove herself from the picture, not because she believes she might be a "temptation" for Georg, but because the whole dynamics of her relationship with him (true friends who have the deepest respect for each other) has changed. She can never be alone with him and look at him the same way again. The clean, childlike innocence that had been present in their interactions is gone for good - at least on her side. Besides, he's an aristocrat, so above her station; he has to marry an equal. It's okay to be appreciated as a friend, as a valuable member of his staff; but as a mate, a wife? Impossible. How could she possibly expect to be loved as more than that?
It's amazing how differently people interpret the same scene, depending on their own personal history. The same dialogue, the same acting, and we still see different things. I never believed that Maria took Elsa's words "he thinks he's in love with you." "The Captain would hardly be a man if he didn't notice you." "He'll get over it soon enough, I should think. Men do, you know?" in the way Elsa intended her to. She thinks that Elsa is overreacting and exaggerating Georg's perceived feelings towards her because she thinks men simply don't (can't) see her "that way," just as she never did before. I think she's terrified that he "might" come to see her that way now that her true feelings for him have been brought to the surface, and he might get those "vibes" from her. Her only option is run to her cell in the Abbey. In my mind, I think she was terrified when the RM sent her back to sort out her feelings for Georg and find out whether he felt the same for her or not. When the children tell her their father's going to be married, it only reinforces her belief that Georg never even began to see her "that way", as the Baroness implied. Why would he? What could he possibly find remotely attractive "that way" about her? She's heartbroken beyond belief, but she's also found a way to make peace with her situation. It's hopeless, and she'd better find a way to deal with it and a way to move on, since being a nun isn't a choice anymore.
Whenever I picture her in that frame of mind, the gazebo scene becomes "THE love scene", above any other in the history of movies. When Georg turns his head and says "You can't marry someone when you're in love with someone else, can you?" it must have been a TOTAL AND ABSOLUTE SHOCK for Maria. And I LOVE putting myself in her shoes right then. To feel worthy, to know that your love is returned in spades, just as desperately and passionately... And he's holding your chin, and bringing you closer and closer while looking into your eyes... THUD!
Do you think kissing Georg completely cures her lack of confidence in herself? Does she now feel attractive and worthy of his love? Or does she need more convincing?
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sandra
Junior Member
Posts: 63
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Post by sandra on May 10, 2020 3:51:59 GMT
If Georg kissed *me* like that he would instantly convince me that I'm a smashing beauty! LOL!
I don't think Maria has low self-esteem or lack of confidence in her feminine assets. I think she never saw herself as a "woman" if you know what I mean - as someone who would make a man turn his head or see her "that way", simply because she never thought of herself in those terms. That's why when Baroness Schraeder calls her attractive and that the Captain would hardly be a man if he hadn't noticed her, she goes all "HUH? Come again?" and thinks Elsa is joking.
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Post by indigoblue on May 18, 2020 23:49:48 GMT
I agree -I think that Maria has such a zest for life that she doesn't stop to think about herself very much. She is much more interested in other people, which is one of the reasons why she is so invested in the childrens' wellbeing. But as is usually the case, because she is outwardly focussed, it makes her all the more appealing; I don't think she spends very long thinking about herself.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 24, 2020 12:25:26 GMT
There is this subtle change in expression that RM that I'm trying to figure out. When Maria is saying "I don't know!", RM has a sweet, almost knowing smile on her face, but when Maria says "The baroness says I am..", RM's expression changes to one of ...confusion? concern? I'm trying to find a good screencap. I'm wondering what is going through RM's mind at the mention of the baroness. It is just, wait who is this person and what is the nature of her relationship with the captain? Is it surprise that someone else noticed this love between Maria and the captain since RM thinks it's just a young girl's crush on famous man? Am I over analyzing this and she is just reacting Maria's frantic rambling? Attachments:
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 28, 2020 23:57:33 GMT
My thinking is that the RM is touched at the thought that Maria has fallen for the Captain, even that the Captain has fallen for her -and happy with that ( and it does solve the problem with Maria).
But the RM doesn't know about Elsa, so when Maria says "The baroness says I am", then the RM has to fathom out exactly what their relationships are, and where the baroness fits into this. There isn't a cosy threesome going on, is there? Surely not!
But the RM is forthright in sending Maria back into the fray to Find Out, so she can't have been too concerned for the romantic dynamics!
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 1, 2020 16:55:03 GMT
just popping in to say that I don't know how I missed sandra 's amazing post - I wish I could tattoo it on my eyelids because it is just a perfect way to reconcile some of what is confusing about Maria - how a nun-to-be could find herself in love. I also love love love the micro analysis of RM's reaction to Maria's confession. You are my people!
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