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Post by lemacd on Jun 28, 2018 4:25:55 GMT
 Franz: Rolf, good evening. Rolf: Good evening, Franz. I trust everything is under control? Franz: Yes, yes. Rolf: Good. Franz: Are there any developments? Rolf: Perhaps. Is the Captain at home? Franz: He's at dinner. Rolf: With the family? Franz: Yes. Rolf: Please give him this telegram at once. Franz: Certainly. This scene, man... it makes me laugh so much. First of all, Rolf is playing like he has some kind of rank. He delivers telegrams. On a bicycle. Now, perhaps in Nazi circles, a telegram boy is considered more valuable than a butler but I've watched enough Downton Abbey to know that butlers have their own egotistical sense of importance and would never put up with that. It just goes to show how swept up in the whole movement Rolf is at this point, play acting like he's somebody, romanticizing it even. Then you have Franz who is eager to discuss the latest Nazi news but Rolf just hints that maybe there is a development. But of course there isn't because it's all just an act. It's a power play to make Franz think he's more important than he is. Then he asks if the Captain is home... the exchange at this point kills me every time. You mean, he's eating dinner? With his family? Franz just confirms this with a look that says, "hey kid, did I stutter? Yeah, dinner with the family." But the best part is he hands Franz the telegram and is all, "Give him this telegram AT ONCE!" Don't delay. Note his reaction and report to me! I'll be in the gazebo... Silly Rolf. We know the telegram is from Elsa, right? But Rolf hands it off as if it is a matter of urgency, possibly life and death. Rolf is 17 going on Drama Queen ( you know you just sang that sentence. Ok, you didn't but you just went back and sang it so HA!). He's just getting his bravado warmed up for Liesl. What a lucky girl *eyeroll*. |
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Post by Supercali on Jun 28, 2018 5:14:30 GMT
Yeah, like later he told Liesel, "I could come here by mistake, with a telegram for Colonel Schneider! He's here from Berlin staying with...No one knows he's here." He definitely believed he himself was someone. And also I have problem with his attitude when he delivered the commission telegram to Liesel, "...I'm occupied with more important matters.
And your father had better be too. " He really thought he's as important as a naval hero whom probably was just offered a high rank commission. And his sixteen going on seventeen speech is kinda funny too which we may discuss later.
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Post by Supercali on Jun 28, 2018 5:48:21 GMT
And about "Give him this telegram AT ONCE!", I tend to believe he wanted the telegram to be delivered promptly so that he didn't need to wait at the gazebo for too long. And it did sound rude and ridiculous. I wonder if he knew that he was simply mentioned as "that young lad" by Franz in front of Liesel.
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Post by lemacd on Jun 28, 2018 14:28:05 GMT
That's a good point. He need it to be delivered right away our Liesl might not know hew was there if Franz waited until agree dinner and when G was alone. Still. Told is a total knob.
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jun 29, 2018 7:06:50 GMT
I never really noticed any special emphasis on the 'at once' (though I'm sure that now that it's been pointed out, I shall forever not hear it)
The dinner with the family always makes me laugh too. While Franz doesn't specifically answer the question (i.e. Yes) it's still ridiculous. "He's at dinner" "With the family?" "No, he's gone off by himself to have a picnic at Mirabell Gardens...OF COURSE WITH THE FAMILY, YOU IDIOT."
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Post by lemacd on Jun 29, 2018 16:40:32 GMT
I never really noticed any special emphasis on the 'at once' (though I'm sure that now that it's been pointed out, I shall forever not hear it) The dinner with the family always makes me laugh too. While Franz doesn't specifically answer the question (i.e. Yes) it's still ridiculous. "He's at dinner" "With the family?" "No, he's gone off by himself to have a picnic at Mirabell Gardens...OF COURSE WITH THE FAMILY, YOU IDIOT." sorry, emphasis was mine though I do think he stresses it a little because Franz affirms that he will deliver it right away. I just think the whole interchange shows Rolf on some kind of power trip. |
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jun 30, 2018 6:01:06 GMT
Yeah no, Rolfe is definitely on a power trip.
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 1, 2018 23:56:33 GMT
I think he asked if the Capt was dining with the family to check whether Liesl was there (Georg might have been dining with friends instead). Hence he told Franz to give him the telegram at once, so Liesl would know Rolf was waiting outside for her.
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jul 2, 2018 5:45:13 GMT
Yeah that is probably part of it. It is very believable that 'at dinner' could also mean guests, but I still think "OF COURSE WITH THE FAMILY" whenever I watch this scene.
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 2, 2018 13:36:54 GMT
What do you think Rolf means by "Is everything under control?"
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Post by lemacd on Jul 2, 2018 14:20:55 GMT
Yeah that is probably part of it. It is very believable that 'at dinner' could also mean guests, but I still think "OF COURSE WITH THE FAMILY" whenever I watch this scene. right. it's not so much that he asked the question (well, it is that a little) but the way Franz answers that makes me laugh. as for what "everything under control" means, not sure. Probably just a way to establish that Franz was serving as a sort of spy. Or maybe he is asking if the children have strung any new governesses up a tree lately... |
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Post by Supercali on Jul 2, 2018 21:06:19 GMT
Yeah that is probably part of it. It is very believable that 'at dinner' could also mean guests, but I still think "OF COURSE WITH THE FAMILY" whenever I watch this scene. right. it's not so much that he asked the question (well, it is that a little) but the way Franz answers that makes me laugh. as for what "everything under control" means, not sure. Probably just a way to establish that Franz was serving as a sort of spy. Or maybe he is asking if the children have strung any new governesses up a tree lately... I don't think Rolf or Franz really cared about the governess issue, especially Rolf. If he did care, he could simply talk about that with Liesel. I think this scene implied that Franz was spying on the house and Rolf was the messenger between him and his supervisor. Maybe they're planning to get some information from the other servants or secretly going through Captain's letters or documents. "Everything under the control" means that their plan went well. Sigh, I am suddenly feeling so sorry for Georg and Liesel. Neither of them realized that the people they trusted were actually doing something against them behind the curtain. (If George had known someone was spying, I don't think he would be saying "We've got to get out of Austria...and this house...tonight. " loudly in the hallway) |
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Post by lemacd on Jul 3, 2018 2:53:47 GMT
right. it's not so much that he asked the question (well, it is that a little) but the way Franz answers that makes me laugh. as for what "everything under control" means, not sure. Probably just a way to establish that Franz was serving as a sort of spy. Or maybe he is asking if the children have strung any new governesses up a tree lately... I don't think Rolf or Franz really cared about the governess issue, especially Rolf. If he did care, he could simply talk about that with Liesel. I think this scene implied that Franz was spying on the house and Rolf was the messenger between him and his supervisor. Maybe they're planning to get some information from the other servants or secretly going through Captain's letters or documents. "Everything under the control" means that their plan went well. Sigh, I am suddenly feeling so sorry for Georg and Liesel. Neither of them realized that the people they trusted were actually doing something against them behind the curtain. (If George had known someone was spying, I don't think he would be saying "We've got to get out of Austria...and this house...tonight. " loudly in the hallway) This is where I like the real story a lot better... the real butler was a Nazi but Georg was aware. If I recall, the family was fond of him but they could never trust him the same after the Anschluss and were very careful about what they said when he was in the room. I think he knew they were leaving the country, though, and actually helped them by not giving them away. It's been awhile since I read the book but I'm sure that someone will correct me if I'm wrong. It is interesting to consider that Georg and Liesl are both being deceived in the same kind of way... I hadn't until now. |
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jul 3, 2018 11:40:14 GMT
The reality is actually rather nice where this situation is concerned.
They didn't trust Hans after the Anschluss; when he immediately told him he was with the Nazis; which happens in Die Trapp Familie and the anime. (Damn, I'm doing it again - I can't talk about the truth without bringing up the other adaptations since my essay - my Youtube video was NOT planned to turn out the way it did).
Back to Hans...I can't remember if Georg knew before the Anschluss, but afterwards they were all very careful and vague around him. But he did tell them when the borders were closing, and Agathe says in her memoir they remembered him with gratitude.
As far as TSOM's butler is concerned, I love the way his allegiance is revealed. The tiny hint in this scene, and then just one shot of him as they're pushing the car. That's all you needed. The musical, where he 'heils' with Rolfe is not nearly as good.
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Post by Supercali on Jul 3, 2018 16:44:44 GMT
The reality is actually rather nice where this situation is concerned. They didn't trust Hans after the Anschluss; when he immediately told him he was with the Nazis; which happens in Die Trapp Familie and the anime. (Damn, I'm doing it again - I can't talk about the truth without bringing up the other adaptations since my essay - my Youtube video was NOT planned to turn out the way it did). Back to Hans...I can't remember if Georg knew before the Anschluss, but afterwards they were all very careful and vague around him. But he did tell them when the borders were closing, and Agathe says in her memoir they remembered him with gratitude. As far as TSOM's butler is concerned, I love the way his allegiance is revealed. The tiny hint in this scene, and then just one shot of him as they're pushing the car. That's all you needed. The musical, where he 'heils' with Rolfe is not nearly as good. Yes, At the Japanese anime Hans did tell them he's with the other side and later almost caught them while they're trying to run away. Just rewatched the final episode days ago. |
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jul 4, 2018 3:28:23 GMT
Ah yes, the anime. Some of the craziest stuff I've ever watched. I LOVED IT. I watched it for my uni essay and now I've bought the DVDs.
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 4, 2018 23:49:52 GMT
I've long had the suspicion that Georg is the organiser of a resistance network in Salzburg, which makes Rolf's comment even more pertinent.
Does Georg know that Franz is a spy for the Nazis in his house, putting him in great danger?
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Post by lemacd on Jul 5, 2018 4:03:07 GMT
hmmm... I don't think he knows about Franz. And not quite sure about being an organizer of a resistance network.
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jul 5, 2018 4:17:54 GMT
I'm also going with a 'no' on the resistance network.
As for Franz, I wouldn't put it past him to know something (even if it's just a sense of something being off, but not exactly what). I think I've seen other people mention something along the lines of him being too aware to not notice something.
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Post by lemacd on Jul 5, 2018 11:55:05 GMT
If he suspected that Franz was a spy, I think the plan to escape would have been carried out differently. Then again they were pushing the car so people in the house wouldn't be aware of their departure. Then AGAIN Maria explained that was to give Franz (and Frau Schmidt) the ability to plead ignorance when questioned. So I suppose it's possible that he suspected Franz was a spy but I think he would have been smarter about leaving if he did. Suspect he was a Nazi? Possibly. That he was a Nazi spy? I doubt it.
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jul 6, 2018 7:13:13 GMT
Yeah. A Nazi and a Nazi SPY are rather different. Georg would not allow the latter under any circumstances.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 22, 2020 16:36:14 GMT
Why doesn't Franz ask what the developments are that Rolf suggested might be happening?
Is it because Rolf tells him to deliver the telegram at once, which would make Franz think the telegram was about Nazi business, making delivering it to the Captain was more important than learning the latest developments from Rolf? He must have been let down when the captain announces that he is leaving for Vienna, which suggests that the telegram was from Elsa and not about Nazi business.
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 15, 2020 22:08:24 GMT
I've always been puzzled by how deferential the older Franz is to the younger Rolf in this scene. I suppose if Rolf is deeply into it, then Franz is reliant on him for the latest information.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 18, 2020 14:35:44 GMT
But would the bicycle delivery boy be trusted with information of any importance? I guess he knows who is in town and where they are staying. Maybe this would be big news to Franz as he would know what these people are in town for? I just always feel like Franz should put Rolf in his place a little more than he does.
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 18, 2020 23:06:06 GMT
This tells me that Franz must be quite seriously into the Nazi party, because otherwise he wouldn't know Rolf was one too, and wouldn't treat him so seriously. I agree that delivering telegrams to people must mean Rolf gets to know who is around - and particularly busy when the Anschluss is about to happen.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 14, 2021 20:16:49 GMT
How in the world did the Nazis seduce normal people like a delivery boy and a butler into their cause??
One of my kids had to read a book for school called "The Devil's Arithmetic", which I read too, only because I saw that it was about the holocaust and I wanted to know what level of detail my kid was being exposed to about this. Anyway, the book is fictitious, but based on experiences of real people in concentration camps. And it is just SO SHOCKINGLY TERRIBLE what happened to these people! It's literally giving me nightmares. Everyone has had to study world history, of course, so we can all recite the numbers on how many people were killed in WWII, but to read actual experiences makes it so much more human. and horrifying.
Reading this through TSOM lens, I feel proud of Georg for being so opposed to this madness, but the question is, why wasn't everyone else?? Were Germans just so tired of the repercussions of WWI that they blindly followed anyone promising to lead them back to power? Then people signed up without really knowing what they were signing up for? The average person could not have been ok with this violence towards innocent people. Does Rolf know what they are "getting ready" to do? Does Max know "whatever is going to happen" (but not to him)? Georg seems to have it figured out, maybe because he was in the first World War, so he can see the writing on the wall easier than others can?
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laurynvi
Full Member
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Post by laurynvi on Feb 15, 2021 1:17:43 GMT
My husband is German and most of his father's generation was involve in WWII (including my FIL's older brother and father) - from what I gather most people were actually quite lukewarm about the whole thing but when the Nazi movement swept the country everyone was swept right along. But absolutely, I feel the harsh repercussions of WWI led to ripe conditions for Hitler's ideology to take root, and also I understand he was a particularly charismatic and persuasive man. What's also strange to me is how the early 1930's Austria had labelled the Nazi's as a terrorist group but then the majority of Austrians supported the Anschluss just a few short years later... I don't think any of them really had any idea about the looming genocide (I think Georg's reluctance really had more to do with Austrian pride and not wanting to be incorporated into the Third Reich...) - and the treatment of the Jews in Austria really became a downward spiral after the Anschluss (eg. from the Night of the Broken Glass to not being able to find employment and eventually to concentration camps). (I'm not a historian - just interest  Happy to stand corrected.) |
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 16, 2021 1:01:26 GMT
For what it is worth, I asked my (British) father who was a Spitfire pilot in WWII what he knew about this, and he said he was aware that a lot of Jews had sought refuge in Britain from persecution in the 1930s. However, he said the first time he heard anything of the Holocaust was in about 1944, but it was only when the war ended that the true horror of it became public knowledge in Britain.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 17, 2021 16:31:03 GMT
This makes sense, as these camps were mostly in secluded areas, and world wide communication was not fast and simple like it is today. The horrors, I'm sure, were also intentionally kept quiet.
You are right, Georg's "world that's disappearing" is probably his concern that Austria will be no more, which is too bitter a pill to take for someone who had sacrificed so much for his country.
The overall scale of what happened in WWII and how many people were involved is just staggering to me. I still don't quite understand how it happened.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 17, 2021 23:41:31 GMT
I remember seeing a documentary about 5 years ago, about what ordinary Germans thought of the Nazi movement; it coincided with the makers acquiring a stash of verified German amateur home movies from 1938-40, taking in life in small town Germany(not propaganda). What was so strange was that, in amongst the family cine film of babies, children, etc, were many scenes of ordinary people beside the sea, tea dances, street parties etc, in which Germans looked entirely happy and relaxed, even though the time period went from 1938 when Germany was invading Czechoslovakia and France, to 1940, when they were bombing several British cities to bits. Even the Hitler Youth training camps appeared to be full of young people enjoying themselves (like Rolf).
It all fits with your comments above about how people just seemed to get swept along with it - quite unbelievable.
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Happy to stand corrected.)