|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 23, 2018 2:28:44 GMT
 I used to think this was a very romantic scene. Young love, first kiss, etc. But if t weren't for the dancing sequence, it would be utterly ridiculous. Guy condescendingly tells girl she's naïve and easy prey and promises to take care of her. Hot-blooded girl takes that as a promise to show her all the things and chases him around the gazebo for a kiss. Boy finally grabs girl, kisses girl, runs away like his lips are on fire. Girl doesn't care, she thinks he's hot. Discuss Rolf's assessment of Liesl and how/why he thinks she needs him. Just discuss the stupid lyrics of the song. I know this is how people treated women then or how they thought about women, but please feel free to use your 2018 filter to talk about it. And tells us your opinion of their kiss. I'll contribute mine once the ball starts rolling. |
|
|
|
Post by Supercali on Aug 23, 2018 4:12:23 GMT
"Though we adore men individually, we agree that as a group they're rather stupid..." (Suddenly think of this lyric)
Besides the gender stereotype, Rolf probably thought he himself was a sophisticated somebody, his job allowed him to important people around the town and might also made him to believe that he was or at least would be one of them, while Liesl was well protected by her family. That's why he thought he's a better person in this relationship. But in the end of the gazebo scene we can see, he's not as gutty as he claimed he was.
|
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Aug 23, 2018 23:05:07 GMT
Yes, I think joining the ranks of the Nazis as an occupying force would have given Rolfe a sense of entitlement which was misplaced, and would have given him a sense of confidence and self-importance that he wouldn't otherwise have had.
Add to that visiting the sumptuous villa and meeting the lovely Liesl, and he must have thought the world was opening up to him. My feeling is that he didn't actually like her as much as she did him, but meeting someone else who is from a world far more privileged than your own does odd things with your sense of curiosity and attraction, and I think he just wanted to see into it and explore it a bit. Then, when he realised he could use the opportunity to gain useful information on the Captain, he could see that this was also a route to making himself more valuable to his superiors...all rather self-orientated, I'm afraid.
|
|
|
|
Post by andhereweare on Aug 31, 2018 4:35:18 GMT
Imagine: Click-click.
Captain with a shotgun.
|
|
|
|
Post by Supercali on Aug 31, 2018 16:42:52 GMT
Imagine: Click-click. Captain with a shotgun. ![]()  |
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Dec 1, 2020 17:56:30 GMT
I am gaining a new appreciation for this scene. When I was young, this was one of my favorite scenes in the whole movie. Twirly dress! Exciting dance moves! Weee! As an adult, it kind of made me want to roll my eyes at how clueless she is. But, in the same situation, would I be any different? Sixteen is really young! And she has no real life experience at all. Of course she is taken with this guy! Of course she glosses over all of the red flags. She's not even listening to him, she's daydreaming about what "romantic" thing she hopes he says next and then trying to get him to say it. I feel bad for her, but really, she got out of this relationship relatively unscathed.
On to Rolf. Ug. But again, very young. I'm sure there were many poor young kids that were seduced by the Nazis and were in over their heads before they realized what they had signed up for. I think he really did like Liesl, and wasn't just there to spy on her father. She would be forbidden by his circle after it was exposed that her father was not going along with the Nazi plan. So he would have to pretend he didn't care about her, even if he still did. In the play he tells his superiors that they are not in the graveyard (when in fact they are) and essentially allows their escape, risking his own life to do so. Why do you think they changed that for the movie? To show that Georg was tougher than some bratty telegram delivery boy and that he is not needed for the Von Trapps to outsmart the Nazis?
|
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Dec 4, 2020 12:35:08 GMT
I can't help thinking that a boy in a uniform can appear like a man, even if he is just the telegram boy, and then with the Nazis he is on to bigger things,like guns to go with the uniform. So Liesl may well have been wowed by the uniform alone, as there wasn't much inside it...
I suppose it adds to the drama if the von Ts only just get away, with the Nazis hot on their tail.
|
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 14, 2021 19:44:04 GMT
How long do you think Liesl has known Rolf? How many times has this telegram/ secret gazebo meeting happened? Is this the first one??
|
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Feb 16, 2021 23:49:18 GMT
Not very long - maybe a few months, even only met a few times? They have obviously worked out the gazebo rendezvous, so that must have worked before, but maybe they only sat outside talking if the weather was fine. They clearly don't know each other well!
|
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 17, 2021 16:35:07 GMT
Where do you think they met? Maybe school? Though, Liesl likely goes to a private school. Still, maybe they do go to the same school, which is why she mentions wanting school to starts so she can see him again?
|
|
|
|
Post by utility_singer on Feb 20, 2021 22:35:17 GMT
I am gaining a new appreciation for this scene. When I was young, this was one of my favorite scenes in the whole movie. Twirly dress! Exciting dance moves! Weee! As an adult, it kind of made me want to roll my eyes at how clueless she is. But, in the same situation, would I be any different? Sixteen is really young! And she has no real life experience at all. Of course she is taken with this guy! Of course she glosses over all of the red flags. She's not even listening to him, she's daydreaming about what "romantic" thing she hopes he says next and then trying to get him to say it. I feel bad for her, but really, she got out of this relationship relatively unscathed. On to Rolf. Ug. But again, very young. I'm sure there were many poor young kids that were seduced by the Nazis and were in over their heads before they realized what they had signed up for. I think he really did like Liesl, and wasn't just there to spy on her father. She would be forbidden by his circle after it was exposed that her father was not going along with the Nazi plan. So he would have to pretend he didn't care about her, even if he still did. In the play he tells his superiors that they are not in the graveyard (when in fact they are) and essentially allows their escape, risking his own life to do so. Why do you think they changed that for the movie? To show that Georg was tougher than some bratty telegram delivery boy and that he is not needed for the Von Trapps to outsmart the Nazis? The tone of the ending is entirely different, as in the play Georg asks Maria what to do about taking the position offered (with some idiotic line about feeling the sea beneath him, or something) and again in the graveyard, with a 'what do we do now' moment and she is the one who says they'll cross over the mountains on foot. I think it was changed because it is entirely OUT of character for a man who was a naval hero. When the character was fleshed out, he got a much needed backbone. In the play he was quite weak and ineffectual. |
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Feb 21, 2021 0:31:48 GMT
Yes, and it makes the graveyard scene quite nailbiting, with the family first hiding behind the gravestones and then the stand-off between Georg and Rolf. It does give G some spine and humanity, and at the same time one can sympathise with Rolf's dilemma.
Do you think this is one of the parts which CP put in to make G a believable character? If one compares the G we first meet in the film with the one who advances on Rolf speaking persuasively, he seems to have gone from two dimensions to three.
|
|
|
|
Post by utility_singer on Feb 25, 2021 0:20:21 GMT
Do you think this is one of the parts which CP put in to make G a believable character? If one compares the G we first meet in the film with the one who advances on Rolf speaking persuasively, he seems to have gone from two dimensions to three. Absolutely. |
|
|
|
Post by missisa on Sept 23, 2021 20:41:34 GMT
This scene, in which the captain succeeds in snatching the gun from Rolf, used to baffle me as a child. Why can he just "beat" Rolf with his voice? Rolf is stupid! As you age, one appreciates the number of nuances that are there, the pressure that an inexperienced boy like Rolf must have felt while facing the imposing presence of a military hero and also his enemy personally and politically. This is the scene that even TSOM haters should applaud. Sorry not sure this is the correct thread to talk about this! |
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Sept 27, 2021 20:16:28 GMT
Any thread is a great one to talk about this, such a fascinating dilemma!
I had similar puzzlement about it, until I put myself in Rolf's shoes. Here is an inexperienced 17 yr old boy all trumped up to be a Nazi soldier, facing a decorated naval hero who happens to be father to his girlfriend. He has a gun (which he has probably never fired out of the firing range), and has been told to find the von Trapps (who may well face death if they are caught).
As the Captain advances towards him, Rolf will gain huge prestige for revealing them to his Nazi commander, but what prevents him from calling out is the aura of the Captain, and his ability to 'talk him down' by trying to undermine Rolf's sense of attachment to the Nazis ("you're only a boy","come away with us", "you'll never be one of them"). In fact, Georg is goading Rolf into shooting him at point blank range by advancing on him, but has faith that he won't (maybe also because he has the family with him, although he guides them away so they won't see the bloodshed if it happens).
I sense the hand of CP in the screenwriting here again, for the subtle nuances you mention - and for enabling us to see the true depth of our favourite naval commander!
|
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Sept 30, 2021 22:18:37 GMT
In fact, this last scene seems almost Shakespearean to me, in the shape of the understated and 'redundant' hero advancing on a jumped-up underling, and just at the point where he disarms Rolf, the hero delivers a virtual dagger-blow by saying " You'll never be one of them" (does he mean here that Rolf is too weak to be one of the Nazis?). This is the trigger for the underling to reassert himself by calling out, sending the hero running.
Very dramatic, and perhaps evocative of one of the many Shakespearean parts that CP played before TSOM?
|
|
|
|
Post by Chris&Byng on Oct 1, 2021 19:11:16 GMT
The real CVT mentions in his book that members of his crew would become afflicted with "gasoline stupor" and others still with war psychoses and had to be restrained until they returned to port. I think CP plays this so well - yes, the Shakespeare is totally part of it - but also to understand that the real CVT had to deal with subordinates under water and in perilous circumstances. Cool as a cucumber and very effective at de-escalating.
(I remember the first time I 'remember' watching all of SoM, I was thinking "oh yay, Rolfe is going to escape with them!")
|
|
|
|
Post by missisa on Oct 1, 2021 21:01:10 GMT
I had never thought about the Shakespearean flavor but I totally agree that there is a lot of power there, theatrical, in the best sense of the word, something that you can't hear but feel. I like to imagine that CP was finally enjoying that shooting day of """S&M""" LoL
I also love the captain's reaction to Rolf's whistle, once Rolf, in revenge, makes him sound with that face of fear and hatred, knowing that he no longer has anything to lose (because, in fact, he has lost the duel).
I adore those few seconds in which the captain stares at Rolf, as if enjoying his victory, it almost makes me nervous about the seconds lost when getting into the car where his family awaits him (before knowing that the "sin" of the sisters was covering his back, of course).
How he goes down the stairs but can't help to look back before getting in the car and accelerating with all his heart. God, that is breathtaking! What were Maria and the children thinking until Georg arrived? I don't know, but the feeling I bet it was heartbreaking.
|
|
laurynvi
Full Member
I ask you to stay.
Posts: 212
|
Post by laurynvi on Oct 2, 2021 0:54:05 GMT
I wrote a story inspired by this scene once, and the contrast between CvT and Rolfe. Rolfe’s hesitation is a foil to CvT’s surety. He walks with almost a swagger even though he’s approaching Rolfe like he doesn’t want to scare a frightened animal - he’s completely unfazed even with a gun pointed at his chest. Georg is buoyed by everything he values - his country, his family, Maria, it’s almost like it’s made him invincible. Rolfe, on the other hand, has no idea what he stands for. (The summary of my story about Rolfe and this moment: “Of course, Rolfe had a choice. He'd always had. But the lesson comes too late that the key is to have something worth choosing”) Of course, this interpretation gives Rolfe a soul and some measure of sympathy - depending on my mood while watching SOM, I don't always have that.  |
|
|
|
Post by Chris&Byng on Oct 3, 2021 1:27:24 GMT
I had never thought about the Shakespearean flavor but I totally agree that there is a lot of power there, theatrical, in the best sense of the word, something that you can't hear but feel. I like to imagine that CP was finally enjoying that shooting day of """S&M""" LoL I also love the captain's reaction to Rolf's whistle, once Rolf, in revenge, makes him sound with that face of fear and hatred, knowing that he no longer has anything to lose (because, in fact, he has lost the duel). I adore those few seconds in which the captain stares at Rolf, as if enjoying his victory, it almost makes me nervous about the seconds lost when getting into the car where his family awaits him (before knowing that the "sin" of the sisters was covering his back, of course). How he goes down the stairs but can't help to look back before getting in the car and accelerating with all his heart. God, that is breathtaking! What were Maria and the children thinking until Georg arrived? I don't know, but the feeling I bet it was heartbreaking. OMG missisa never thought about the whistle...! It has come full circle, but in this case, it wasn't good for anyone  |
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Oct 24, 2021 23:00:04 GMT
laurynvi, that was a great story (it had to be, to make me see things from Rolf's POV). Although "the key is to have something worth choosing" sounds more like laurynvi's wisdom than Rolf's. missisa I've always loved the excitement of the Captain's escape, but your observations made me appreciate it even more. I bet his family wasn't nervous at all, I bet they were totally confident that he would show up and save the day. Because he's ... the Captain.
|
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 1, 2021 21:20:58 GMT
How he goes down the stairs but can't help to look back before getting in the car and accelerating with all his heart. God, that is breathtaking! What were Maria and the children thinking until Georg arrived? I don't know, but the feeling I bet it was heartbreaking. I always think that they have quickly piled into the car (how do they all even fit in there?) and are sitting in tense silence, with Maria quietly whispering the rosary and trying not to outwardly show that she is losing her mind with worry. |
|
