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Post by captainfraulein on May 1, 2021 20:58:05 GMT
This is one of my favourite scenes in the entire movie. It shows how much things have improved since the rowboat argument. I have a few questions though. How much time has passed between this and the rowboat scene? I feel as though it must be a couple of weeks as there have been many improvements. I also like to think that this scene is where the Captain really notices Maria's true talent and is totally blown away by it. When he says he is really VERY much impressed, he is 100% talking about her rather than the children - i also think Elsa notices his attention to Maria here too (she's the only one that doesn't stand up and give applause after the performance and seems quite wary of Maria afterwards.)
Just wondering if anyone else wants to add onto what i have said? I feel as though the Edelweiss scene is discussed a lot more than this one.
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Post by indigoblue on May 1, 2021 23:20:25 GMT
Oh, WE love this scene too, captainfraulein - there is a load of ultramicroanalysis elsewhere in this forum!
I think at least 3 weeks must have passed between the rowboat/argument scene and this because, as you say, their relationship is entirely different. And the fact that she has been allowed to set up the puppet theatre in the ballroom is a complete change to his attitude before.
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Post by augiesannie on May 5, 2021 0:08:52 GMT
yes, the playful way he peeks backstage before it starts is another sign of change. as you can see from my avatar I'm a huge fan of this scene!
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 5, 2021 4:29:05 GMT
captainfraulein I like that you pointed out that Elsa is the only one not standing and clapping at the end of the performance. She seems to be looking to Georg and Max through this whole scene to know what reaction to have, which is so telling. Maybe by the end she was tired of the act or maybe she thought it unladylike to jump out of her seat and applaud? I love this scene because Georg looks so genuinely happy. I like the playful peek behind th stage too, and his laughter during the show. It shows such a huge change in him with no words at all. I can't find a good sceencap of this, but right after Elsa says "My dear, is there anything you can't do?" Georg glances at her with a little bit of strange look. What do you think he makes of this question?
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Post by indigoblue on May 5, 2021 17:31:44 GMT
I think Georg feels she is being unnecessarily sarcastic (especially when Maria has worked so hard to make the show a success and the children happy). Maybe this is one of the first moments when he really feels Elsa isn't for him, aggravated by the fact that he is beginning to see deep and lovely qualities in Maria which he really admires?
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Post by augiesannie on May 9, 2021 22:49:56 GMT
captainfraulein I like that you pointed out that Elsa is the only one not standing and clapping at the end of the performance. She seems to be looking to Georg and Max through this whole scene to know what reaction to have, which is so telling. Maybe by the end she was tired of the act or maybe she thought it unladylike to jump out of her seat and applaud? I love this scene because Georg looks so genuinely happy. I like the playful peek behind th stage too, and his laughter during the show. It shows such a huge change in him with no words at all. I can't find a good sceencap of this, but right after Elsa says "My dear, is there anything you can't do?" Georg glances at her with a little bit of strange look. What do you think he makes of this question? like this one?regardless, that is a great observation!
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 15, 2021 20:50:11 GMT
captainfraulein I like that you pointed out that Elsa is the only one not standing and clapping at the end of the performance. She seems to be looking to Georg and Max through this whole scene to know what reaction to have, which is so telling. Maybe by the end she was tired of the act or maybe she thought it unladylike to jump out of her seat and applaud? I love this scene because Georg looks so genuinely happy. I like the playful peek behind th stage too, and his laughter during the show. It shows such a huge change in him with no words at all. I can't find a good sceencap of this, but right after Elsa says "My dear, is there anything you can't do?" Georg glances at her with a little bit of strange look. What do you think he makes of this question? like this one?regardless, that is a great observation! Yes, that's the look. It kind of says to me "Seriously? Why are you being mean when this person has done nothing to you?" Interesting indigoblue that you think this might be the first time he is thinking that Elsa is not right for him. They don't seem that comfortable with each other, especially for people that are considering getting engaged. Though, they are both choosing to ignore this. What about this comment do you think opens his eyes? Do you think it crosses a line in his mind, making him realize that he and Elsa don't just have differences in lifestyle but also have differences in how they treat treat people? Or do you think it was specific to Maria - he already knows that he likes her (as a friend) so anyone being mean to her would cross a line for him?
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Post by captainfraulein on May 15, 2021 21:57:57 GMT
Lonely Goatherd Scene
Elsaโs face: smiling/laughing
Elsaโs Mind: *Iโm so uncomfortable* *I want to die* *I canโt wait to lock up these yodelling leeches in a boarding school*
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Post by captainfraulein on May 15, 2021 21:59:21 GMT
Also, Elsa is probably thinking โhow the hell is my harmonica gonna top this operatic machine?โ
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Post by indigoblue on May 15, 2021 23:13:18 GMT
Reverendcaptain, judging by his new cheerfulness and positive reaction to Maria, I rather suspect something has been developing in his mind over the previous few weeks since The Apology. My thinking is that he has also slowly been realising that Elsa is too superficial for his taste, and a gulf is opening up between them, which she must have sensed (very difficult for her, being stuck at his house!). Maybe seeing him fawning over Maria gave confirmation to Elsa that she was losing, giving rise to the pointed remark, which unfortunately only served to underline the gap between her and Georg - I think what irritated him was how she was treating her.
I was wondering whether this was because Elsa was exerting her superiority, but Georg certainly enjoyed exerting his superiority over Maria when she first came to the villa...
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Post by augiesannie on May 16, 2021 20:32:05 GMT
Ah but he's the Captain! I like the way he grabs Elsa by the elbow, which seems superficially to confirm their connection, but there's an impatience to it, as though he's escorting an unruly child from the playground. I just watched this again and another thing I noticed is that when he notices Elsa and makes that apologetic bow, Maria offers a little nod of understanding, like they both get why he has to excuse himself. And here's another question: how, exactly, would Elsa be able to "help" Maria with her problems of not being a good nun?
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Post by captainfraulein on May 16, 2021 21:52:26 GMT
how, exactly, would Elsa be able to "help" Maria with her problems of not being a good nun? Part of me has always seen this comment as a sort of foreshadowing of what is to come. In a way, Elsa confronting Maria about her feelings at the party almost "helped her become a nun" as she went straight back to the abbey and was willing to take her vows until RM stopped her. Perhaps Elsa has sensed there is something going on between M&G by this stage and is trying to stop it from developing? Therefore, her comment may come from a place of "let me help you get over your silly little crush and you'll be hopping off to the abbey in no time." Though, it is before the tell-all Edelweiss scene so maybe their feeling aren't clear yet? Oh, so much to analyse!!
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Post by indigoblue on May 16, 2021 21:57:12 GMT
Yes, I interpreted it as a rather convoluted way to ensure that Maria remains such a good nun that she resides in a convent for the rest of her life (and bothers the von Trapp household no more!).
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 17, 2021 16:05:35 GMT
Reverendcaptain, judging by his new cheerfulness and positive reaction to Maria, I rather suspect something has been developing in his mind over the previous few weeks since The Apology. My thinking is that he has also slowly been realising that Elsa is too superficial for his taste, and a gulf is opening up between them, which she must have sensed (very difficult for her, being stuck at his house!). Maybe seeing him fawning over Maria gave confirmation to Elsa that she was losing, giving rise to the pointed remark, which unfortunately only served to underline the gap between her and Georg - I think what irritated him was how she was treating her. I was wondering whether this was because Elsa was exerting her superiority, but Georg certainly enjoyed exerting his superiority over Maria when she first came to the villa... Georg absolutely enjoyed exerting his superiority over Maria when she first came to the villa. But he had a reason to. He felt like he needed to set up that he was in control and this was how his household was run, so conform or you'll fail. That wasn't the case of course, but it was in his mind. Elsa was exerting superiority just to be mean. Which really rubbed Georg the wrong way because Maria was healing his relationship with his kids and he (subconsciously) already liked her. I like your thoughts that this rift between G&E has been opening for a few weeks, just as the closeness with Maria has been growing for a few weeks. Do you think this is the first time Elsa has actually spoken to Maria directly?
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 17, 2021 16:15:21 GMT
how, exactly, would Elsa be able to "help" Maria with her problems of not being a good nun? Part of me has always seen this comment as a sort of foreshadowing of what is to come. In a way, Elsa confronting Maria about her feelings at the party almost "helped her become a nun" as she went straight back to the abbey and was willing to take her vows until RM stopped her. Perhaps Elsa has sensed there is something going on between M&G by this stage and is trying to stop it from developing? Therefore, her comment may come from a place of "let me help you get over your silly little crush and you'll be hopping off to the abbey in no time." Though, it is before the tell-all Edelweiss scene so maybe their feeling aren't clear yet? Oh, so much to analyse!! I like this explanation. I always thought this was a ridiculous thing for Elsa to say. What could she possibly be helpful with in becoming a nun? But maybe it was completely sarcastic, a joke that Elsa was making to herself. "If you have any problems returning to the convent, I'd be happy to escort you out the door!" kind of thing. Though it is disguised as pleasant chit chat.
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 17, 2021 16:23:45 GMT
Ah but he's the Captain! I like the way he grabs Elsa by the elbow, which seems superficially to confirm their connection, but there's an impatience to it, as though he's escorting an unruly child from the playground. I just watched this again and another thing I noticed is that when he notices Elsa and makes that apologetic bow, Maria offers a little nod of understanding, like they both get why he has to excuse himself. The silent communication has already begun! Something that Elsa and Georg don't seem to have, which Elsa gets to witness Maria and Georg having after the puppet show, when Maria is asking Georg to sing, and definitely through the whole Edelweiss. He does seem impatient with her, and her snide comments probably did not help his feelings. As Indigo was saying, the rift is already forming in their relationship.
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Post by captainfraulein on May 17, 2021 20:45:57 GMT
Reverendcaptain, judging by his new cheerfulness and positive reaction to Maria, I rather suspect something has been developing in his mind over the previous few weeks since The Apology. My thinking is that he has also slowly been realising that Elsa is too superficial for his taste, and a gulf is opening up between them, which she must have sensed (very difficult for her, being stuck at his house!). Maybe seeing him fawning over Maria gave confirmation to Elsa that she was losing, giving rise to the pointed remark, which unfortunately only served to underline the gap between her and Georg - I think what irritated him was how she was treating her. I was wondering whether this was because Elsa was exerting her superiority, but Georg certainly enjoyed exerting his superiority over Maria when she first came to the villa... I would love to see what happened over the space of time between the Argument/Apology and the Lonely Goatherd for their relationship to have improved so much.
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Post by captainfraulein on May 17, 2021 20:46:52 GMT
Part of me has always seen this comment as a sort of foreshadowing of what is to come. In a way, Elsa confronting Maria about her feelings at the party almost "helped her become a nun" as she went straight back to the abbey and was willing to take her vows until RM stopped her. Perhaps Elsa has sensed there is something going on between M&G by this stage and is trying to stop it from developing? Therefore, her comment may come from a place of "let me help you get over your silly little crush and you'll be hopping off to the abbey in no time." Though, it is before the tell-all Edelweiss scene so maybe their feeling aren't clear yet? Oh, so much to analyse!! I like this explanation. I always thought this was a ridiculous thing for Elsa to say. What could she possibly be helpful with in becoming a nun? But maybe it was completely sarcastic, a joke that Elsa was making to herself. "If you have any problems returning to the convent, I'd be happy to escort you out the door!" kind of thing. Though it is disguised as pleasant chit chat. It being a sarcastic comment is the only way I was ever able to make sense of it๐
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Post by augiesannie on May 17, 2021 21:41:31 GMT
Reverendcaptain, judging by his new cheerfulness and positive reaction to Maria, I rather suspect something has been developing in his mind over the previous few weeks since The Apology. My thinking is that he has also slowly been realising that Elsa is too superficial for his taste, and a gulf is opening up between them, which she must have sensed (very difficult for her, being stuck at his house!). Maybe seeing him fawning over Maria gave confirmation to Elsa that she was losing, giving rise to the pointed remark, which unfortunately only served to underline the gap between her and Georg - I think what irritated him was how she was treating her. I was wondering whether this was because Elsa was exerting her superiority, but Georg certainly enjoyed exerting his superiority over Maria when she first came to the villa... I would love to see what happened over the space of time between the Argument/Apology and the Lonely Goatherd for their relationship to have improved so much. ...and that's why we have fanfiction! <3
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Post by juliemadlydeeply on May 17, 2021 23:05:26 GMT
This thread has been so interesting to read because I never took Elsa's comment as one of exerting superiority, but rather that she wasn't really listening! I always assumed she asked "...is there anything you can't do?" to show Georg that she could be kind to Maria, or to make small talk in an awkward moment, and then did not really listen to Maria's response. She is walking and making eyes at Georg while Maria is talking. To me, she seems distracted, almost, maybe replaying the recent "they're your children, Captain!" moment and trying to analyze what exactly happened. When she moves to respond to Maria, she still seems totally focused on something else. In my mind, she asked that question and assumed that Maria would say something about making a certain kind of dress or acting ladylike and then delivered a generic response without listening.
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Post by Chris&Byng on May 17, 2021 23:39:47 GMT
Reverendcaptain, judging by his new cheerfulness and positive reaction to Maria, I rather suspect something has been developing in his mind over the previous few weeks since The Apology. My thinking is that he has also slowly been realising that Elsa is too superficial for his taste, and a gulf is opening up between them, which she must have sensed (very difficult for her, being stuck at his house!). Maybe seeing him fawning over Maria gave confirmation to Elsa that she was losing, giving rise to the pointed remark, which unfortunately only served to underline the gap between her and Georg - I think what irritated him was how she was treating her. I was wondering whether this was because Elsa was exerting her superiority, but Georg certainly enjoyed exerting his superiority over Maria when she first came to the villa... I would love to see what happened over the space of time between the Argument/Apology and the Lonely Goatherd for their relationship to have improved so much. What I think is fascinating about this scene is how Georg and Elsa exchange glances at each other while walking back towards the foyer, but they are never synchronous - there's a bit of a "look" battle going on. When Georg takes her elbow, she gives him a quick sideways look (the one your mom always gave you when you did something you should not be doing in a public place!) Then, when Elsa asks if there isn't anything Maria can't do, Georg gives her a teeny bit of a death glare, which he 'straightens' right away when Elsa seems to catch the look he's sending, and then she returns the glance in his direction looking quite unimpressed. This exchange seems to provoke her further in her response to when Maria says she isn't likely to make a very good nun. Georg tries to lighten the tension with his belly "oh-ho-ho" laugh and FINALLY Georg manages the non-eyerolling equivalent of an eye-roll (something only Chris Plummer can pull off!) at Elsa as she sashays out of the room. I also think it's quite telling how tense things are as Elsa wrings her hands as she walks away...not sure if she would rather be wringing Georg's neck or Maria's (or both) at that point!
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Post by augiesannie on May 18, 2021 0:20:21 GMT
wow Chris&Byng, I never fail to be amazed at how much detail you pick up. Do you watch in ultra slo mo?
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Post by Chris&Byng on May 18, 2021 1:24:05 GMT
wow Chris&Byng , I never fail to be amazed at how much detail you pick up. Do you watch in ultra slo mo? haha no - I've just watched it so many times I can see the movie in my head with my eyes closed.
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Post by indigoblue on May 18, 2021 14:16:54 GMT
But you do have to watch it in slo-mo to see all those little asides, or else you miss half of them!
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 18, 2021 21:33:34 GMT
This thread has been so interesting to read because I never took Elsa's comment as one of exerting superiority, but rather that she wasn't really listening! I always assumed she asked "...is there anything you can't do?" to show Georg that she could be kind to Maria, or to make small talk in an awkward moment, and then did not really listen to Maria's response. She is walking and making eyes at Georg while Maria is talking. To me, she seems distracted, almost, maybe replaying the recent "they're your children, Captain!" moment and trying to analyze what exactly happened. When she moves to respond to Maria, she still seems totally focused on something else. In my mind, she asked that question and assumed that Maria would say something about making a certain kind of dress or acting ladylike and then delivered a generic response without listening. I can see your point on this. She does seem very distracted/disinterested when she offers her help. Maybe it was just an autopilot response. If that's the case, it would have been great if Maria said something that was even more in left field, and then she and Georg could have shared a smile about Elsa's absentminded reply. "Is there anything you can't do?" is kind of a passive agressive question to ask, isn't it? Even if she always planned to politely offer her help. She could have just said "What a lovely performance" or something along those lines. So, she kind of sets herself up to look bad no matter what.
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Post by indigoblue on May 18, 2021 22:50:53 GMT
But I think Elsa would have been put on high alert by the "they're your children, Captain" interaction she had just seen. In that situation, she would have been listening madly to both M and G to pick up clues in what they were saying, to tell her about their personal relationship, so I think she would have been listening intently to whatever Maria said, rather than being disinterested.
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laurynvi
Full Member
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Post by laurynvi on May 19, 2021 17:45:13 GMT
I love this scene too!
Another question is what each party is thinking with "I'm not sure I'll make a very good nun". Seems a pretty personal thing to say to a woman she hardly knows? Is this the moment she realizes, "oh, so THIS is where I belong", and Georg's "oh-ho" ("...I KNEW it")?
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Post by Chris&Byng on May 19, 2021 23:35:53 GMT
Crush or acting?
I noticed this interaction between Friederich and Maria the other night during the Lonely Goatherd. He looks at her like she is the apple of his eye! Do you think this is 'acting' or is this a crush (Nicholas & Julie)? Attachments:
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laurynvi
Full Member
I ask you to stay.
Posts: 212
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Post by laurynvi on May 20, 2021 0:42:01 GMT
I think Nicholas was actually smitten with Charmain! (Although I do remember reading somewhere that it was Julie who inspired him to get into acting...)
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Post by indigoblue on May 20, 2021 14:10:07 GMT
I know Friedrich was in awe of Julie, because he has said so somewhere in one of the interviews he did - so this is for real!
But after the film, he and Charmian grew close and used to go to dances together, which used to turn a few heads! It sounds like it was more of a tight friendship, because he said she always had lots of men vying for her.
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