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Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 2, 2023 1:33:00 GMT
My thinking is that Elsa's sideglance is a sarcastic warning to Georg that he has been too matey with Maria. But the next bit is a favourite of mine, which we talked about some time ago: I'm pretty sure that, normally the Master of the House would go through the doors first, and the governess afterwards (as his staff). However, Georg waits and gives a little bow to Maria, which is to indicate that she should go through before him (a measure of his new respect for her) - at which Maria gets that worried look, unsure what to do - remain where she should be, or go ahead as indicated. So she does go ahead through the doors before him - but if you watch him as he follows, he is eyeing her up for all he is worth! I'm trying to think whether there are any more situations when Maria and he go through a door, to see who goes through first. Hey y'all, look what the cat dragged in! (it's me! I have been stupid busy and I know THIS SITE is an easy way for me to kill hours, so I have treaded carefully! Hope everyone is doing well!)
When Georg finds Maria in the ballroom, he lets her leave the room first - of course, it's a very different vibe and he's angry at her. But in that scene AND the one we are talking about now, he is shutting the doors to the ballroom after Maria has left. (I do love analogies and metaphors with doors in the movie! augiesannie) ! have this sense that the initial meeting between Georg and Maria is about shutting the doors on his life with Agathe (i.e. eventually leads to the argument on the landing), and then when we get to the Lonely Goatherd/Edelweiss scene, it's a closed door on Elsa. Like, this chapter of my life is over (leads to a break up "over" the landing). English majors might even call it foreshadowing? Bob Wise, if you're reading out there in Heaven, can you please confirm for me if I am onto something, or just completely crazy?
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 3, 2023 0:27:16 GMT
Welcome back Chris&Byng! We've missed you and your insightful comments!
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 20, 2023 10:17:34 GMT
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 20, 2023 18:48:15 GMT
Is Elsa literally wringing her hands has she walks out of the ballroom? Does she feel like she's lost a battle here? Or is she just angry with Georg?
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 27, 2023 23:40:53 GMT
Yes, I think Elsa suddenly realises that, although she was walking out of the ballroom on Georg's arm, he has deliberately slipped back to talk to Maria - again. She picked up all too clearly their earlier encounter with its romantic undertones, and finding herself 'abandoned', her concern shows itself in some elegant handwringing. She's definitely angry with him for being so overt in his interest in Maria, and later on in the sitting room, she gives him daggers when Maria offers him the guitar.
I love that little dance that G and M do going out of the door, both for the way he shows respect to M by letting her through first (he'd normally go first as he is the Master of the house), but also it allows G to remain by the door in isolation to ogle M but also do you think the image of him there emphasises his solitariness, ie not part of a couple?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Oct 4, 2023 19:05:49 GMT
It is amazing how much the actors bring to the movie with their expressions and gestures. There has to be so much that goes into each scene as far as deciding how each character will look or react, even when they aren't the ones delivering lines at the moment. Does the director tell them this? Or do actors get free reign to do what they think the character would do? I know nothing about movie making. Using this one example, did BW tell EP that Elsa should be flustered coming out of the ballroom? Or is this up to her to decide how Elsa would react to being upstaged by Maria?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Oct 4, 2023 19:19:48 GMT
On a different topic, but still on this scene - I read once that JA was the one that wanted the "Whew!" line added in. Initially BW didn't want it, and Maria was just to walk out from behind the stage, but she convinced him that Maria would be exhausted from putting on a puppet show with 7 children and she would express that. To be honest, I've never really liked that "whew", but maybe it speaks to the comfort level already established between G&M. Draping yourself against the wall and expressing exhaustion isn't something you'd do with someone unless you were comfortable with them.
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Post by indigoblue on Oct 5, 2023 23:27:45 GMT
I don't know much about film making, but I understand that the director tries to give shape to the scene, including the mood, so BW would have given an indication of the tensions and mindsets of the characters. After that, it is up to the actors, although some directors are more prescriptive than others.
I think Julie's "Whew!" humanises her - we all identify with her when she does that, and understand that she is 'only just coping' - like us with 7 children! I suppose it adds a little tension into the plot too, because if there is a risk she doesn't cope, and jacks it all in, then the Captain's "I really am very very much impressed" will all be in vain. Just when we get an inkling that he is getting a little fond of her...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 5, 2024 16:46:24 GMT
What do you make of these little bows that Georg and Maria are doing in this scene? It happens after Elsa interrupts him being very very much impressed and again as the exit the room. They seem awkward to me, which is a departure from how we have seen them interact with each other up until this point. They have been very direct with each other when they were at odds in the beginning, during The Argument, and even during The Apology. Now there is this hesitation on how to act around each other. Is it just because they are being watched by Elsa? Is it because their relationship is changing into something more than professional? Thoughts on the bowing? Georg initiates it and Maria follows on both occasions.
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 12, 2024 0:45:53 GMT
Yes, they are curious, and VERY interesting... well-spotted!
I am thinking about how the Master of the House would normally relate to his governess, bearing in mind he is superior to her. I suspect he would normally be direct in speech, and can say what he thinks necessary to her, but would not bow to her as this may be an acknowledgement of a social equal, or possibly of someone he feels 'indebted to' in some form.
But now that they are viewing each other with romantic notions, maybe this is him acknowledging that he has underestimated her before, and that she is worthy of more. He bows, and she probably returns the bow out of courtesy, but in doing so, it creates a kind of 'his and hers' effect, a pairing between them from which Elsa is excluded (and which she doesn't like). Maria is not very used to all this bowing! It goes with him deliberately waiting for her to go through the door into the hall before him, which would not normally happen (especially as Elsa is in front of them).
Funny how bowing has disappeared from current life....
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 16, 2024 15:13:24 GMT
This conversation makes me wish it would come back! Yum! There is so much conversation-without-words going on between M&G during this scene. I did take the first bow, after Elsa interrupts, to be just to confirm his compliments in a non verbal way because he can’t say anything else out loud, but the later bows … you’re right reverendcaptain!!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 20, 2024 1:09:40 GMT
I think some of it has to be that Elsa is with them. I don’t think these awkward exchanges happen when they are alone. I wonder if they continued after Edelweiss, or was that so monumental that they figured out how to part without the nervous exchange afterwards?
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 20, 2024 19:06:18 GMT
I like to think that it might have continued to be awkward, reverendcaptain, just because that would be so deliciously out of character for Georg.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 22, 2024 19:49:37 GMT
Yes, it is out of character for him to be unsure of himself. It is out of character for her too. While she may be flighty, so is also usually confident in her actions. This awkwardness between them has to feel amplified to both them because they are not used to navigating feeling unsure of themselves. I agree that Maria only returns the bows out of courtesy, but she kind of has a look on her face like "Why are you doing that? I guess I'm supposed to do it back?" The whole things is awkward. And delicious!
Speaking of uncomfortable. The silence between the first bow and "My dear, is there anything you can't do?" is painful. It wouldn't be Maria's place to start idle chit chat. Georg has to feel like he's said too much already. I see why Elsa jumped in. She didn't do herself any favors by being snarky though.
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 22, 2024 22:43:49 GMT
Yes, it is out of character for him to be unsure of himself. It is out of character for her too. While she may be flighty, so is also usually confident in her actions. This awkwardness between them has to feel amplified to both them because they are not used to navigating feeling unsure of themselves. I agree that Maria only returns the bows out of courtesy, but she kind of has a look on her face like "Why are you doing that? I guess I'm supposed to do it back?" The whole things is awkward. And delicious! Speaking of uncomfortable. The silence between the first bow and "My dear, is there anything you can't do?" is painful. It wouldn't be Maria's place to start idle chit chat. Georg has to feel like he's said too much already. I see why Elsa jumped in. She didn't do herself any favors by being snarky though. That is so interesting, because in some other universe, someone (like Elsa) jumping in at that moment might actually have been a socially proficient, kind thing to do. To ease the discomfort.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 23, 2024 0:11:01 GMT
Yes, it is out of character for him to be unsure of himself. It is out of character for her too. While she may be flighty, so is also usually confident in her actions. This awkwardness between them has to feel amplified to both them because they are not used to navigating feeling unsure of themselves. I agree that Maria only returns the bows out of courtesy, but she kind of has a look on her face like "Why are you doing that? I guess I'm supposed to do it back?" The whole things is awkward. And delicious! Speaking of uncomfortable. The silence between the first bow and "My dear, is there anything you can't do?" is painful. It wouldn't be Maria's place to start idle chit chat. Georg has to feel like he's said too much already. I see why Elsa jumped in. She didn't do herself any favors by being snarky though. That is so interesting, because in some other universe, someone (like Elsa) jumping in at that moment might actually have been a socially proficient, kind thing to do. To ease the discomfort. I agree. Breaking an uncomfortable silence is quite kind, and being a lady of social graces, I'm sure Elsa is quite capable of jumping in most situations and saying the "right thing". The right thing usually being a compliment. It breaks the silence, it puts the other person at ease, it makes them think she appreciates them. "My dear, is there anything you can't do?" is a compliment, but it's kind of a snide one. Maria has no good way to answer. "Nope. I'm great at everything" is ridiculous, and listing off things she's not good at is uncomfortable for everyone. Elsa sets herself up to look bad in Georg's eyes because she's being unkind to someone he admires and who has done nothing mean to her. It is kind of great that Maria answers right back with "I don't think I'll be a very good nun" because it gives G&M the opportunity to smile and laugh with each other, and also alerts Elsa that Maria might not be headed back to the convent at all. Maybe part of Elsa's hand wringing is knowing that she played her cards wrong. She wanted to put Maria in her place and let Georg know he was out of line, and instead they are sharing a smile and more bows toward each other while she walks alone from the room.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Jan 31, 2024 1:09:18 GMT
Yes, they are curious, and VERY interesting... well-spotted! I am thinking about how the Master of the House would normally relate to his governess, bearing in mind he is superior to her. I suspect he would normally be direct in speech, and can say what he thinks necessary to her, but would not bow to her as this may be an acknowledgement of a social equal, or possibly of someone he feels 'indebted to' in some form. But now that they are viewing each other with romantic notions, maybe this is him acknowledging that he has underestimated her before, and that she is worthy of more. He bows, and she probably returns the bow out of courtesy, but in doing so, it creates a kind of 'his and hers' effect, a pairing between them from which Elsa is excluded (and which she doesn't like). Maria is not very used to all this bowing! It goes with him deliberately waiting for her to go through the door into the hall before him, which would not normally happen (especially as Elsa is in front of them). Funny how bowing has disappeared from current life.... Sunday was the 211th anniversary of the launch of Pride and Prejudice - a story that I think makes little appearances into S of M - particularly the class relationships/considerations. But as I read this thread, I could not help but think of all the bowing that takes place in the Firth/Ehle version of P&P. Anyway, you probably are wondering where I am going with this haha.
I came across an article about Jane Austen's work through a Wikipedia rabbit hole about the P&P anniversary...and it spoke to me about the goings-on in this scene:
"Gentlemen were also expected to bow upon taking leave of a lady. Bows or tips of the hat were given in greeting to women, social superiors, and to acquaintances seen at a distance. Nodding was also important. Nodding was also common courtesy among women. And, much like a visit, a tip of the hat or nod of the head must be returned, as we see in Northanger Abbey when Catherine is looking for Mr. Tilney but is also occupied with “returning the nods and smiles of Miss Thorpe,” which “claimed much of her leisure” (Austen NA 35)."
Thus, socially, these interactions could be seen as Georg acknowledging Maria is more than the help (i.e. taking leave of a lady), and by social code, Maria is expected to return this. I don't know, I appreciate that SofM is not regency by any means, but there's got to be SOME reason for it happening, and I latched on to this.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 4, 2024 0:21:00 GMT
This is ABSOLUTELY relevant! Austria still has very strict social codes - forgive me for repeating something I have written elsewhere - which is that a nephew of mine who is 26 and has lived with his girlfriend in London for 3 years is moving to Vienna to work, but is not allowed to live with his girlfriend there.
Another Swiss friend of mine (the country next door) says there is are very strong Bourgeois attitudes there which frown on women working at high level, full-time - which is why she works in the UK. So back in 1930, you can see that social codes were very formal, especially in very rural Salzburg (250 miles from decadent Vienna).
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 22, 2024 19:42:15 GMT
Yes, they are curious, and VERY interesting... well-spotted! I am thinking about how the Master of the House would normally relate to his governess, bearing in mind he is superior to her. I suspect he would normally be direct in speech, and can say what he thinks necessary to her, but would not bow to her as this may be an acknowledgement of a social equal, or possibly of someone he feels 'indebted to' in some form. But now that they are viewing each other with romantic notions, maybe this is him acknowledging that he has underestimated her before, and that she is worthy of more. He bows, and she probably returns the bow out of courtesy, but in doing so, it creates a kind of 'his and hers' effect, a pairing between them from which Elsa is excluded (and which she doesn't like). Maria is not very used to all this bowing! It goes with him deliberately waiting for her to go through the door into the hall before him, which would not normally happen (especially as Elsa is in front of them). Funny how bowing has disappeared from current life.... Sunday was the 211th anniversary of the launch of Pride and Prejudice - a story that I think makes little appearances into S of M - particularly the class relationships/considerations. But as I read this thread, I could not help but think of all the bowing that takes place in the Firth/Ehle version of P&P. Anyway, you probably are wondering where I am going with this haha. I came across an article about Jane Austen's work through a Wikipedia rabbit hole about the P&P anniversary...and it spoke to me about the goings-on in this scene: "Gentlemen were also expected to bow upon taking leave of a lady. Bows or tips of the hat were given in greeting to women, social superiors, and to acquaintances seen at a distance. Nodding was also important. Nodding was also common courtesy among women. And, much like a visit, a tip of the hat or nod of the head must be returned, as we see in Northanger Abbey when Catherine is looking for Mr. Tilney but is also occupied with “returning the nods and smiles of Miss Thorpe,” which “claimed much of her leisure” (Austen NA 35)." Thus, socially, these interactions could be seen as Georg acknowledging Maria is more than the help (i.e. taking leave of a lady), and by social code, Maria is expected to return this. I don't know, I appreciate that SofM is not regency by any means, but there's got to be SOME reason for it happening, and I latched on to this.
Chris&Byng I loved that you invoked P&P here even if it took me weeks to thank you for it. P&P is definitely a side dish in my TSOM love. And the Firth/Ehle version is my favorite.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 2, 2024 1:35:29 GMT
Yes, they are curious, and VERY interesting... well-spotted! I am thinking about how the Master of the House would normally relate to his governess, bearing in mind he is superior to her. I suspect he would normally be direct in speech, and can say what he thinks necessary to her, but would not bow to her as this may be an acknowledgement of a social equal, or possibly of someone he feels 'indebted to' in some form. But now that they are viewing each other with romantic notions, maybe this is him acknowledging that he has underestimated her before, and that she is worthy of more. He bows, and she probably returns the bow out of courtesy, but in doing so, it creates a kind of 'his and hers' effect, a pairing between them from which Elsa is excluded (and which she doesn't like). Maria is not very used to all this bowing! It goes with him deliberately waiting for her to go through the door into the hall before him, which would not normally happen (especially as Elsa is in front of them). Funny how bowing has disappeared from current life.... I was thinking about Georg stopping and letting Maria go through the door first. It definitely does show that he respects her as an equal, but also, it kind of marks a change in who is walking away from whom in this movie. Up until this point, Georg has always been the one walking away first - You may call me Captain, and I’m their father, oh yes you are Captain, more than you know. After the puppet show, Georg lets Maria go first. She is the one walking away after Edelwiess, the Laendler, you can change we’ll wait for you, only until arrangements can be made for another governess. It’s an interesting shift.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 4, 2024 0:40:26 GMT
Yes, and not sure whether this was deliberate or not, but in the gazebo scene, he gets up after I'm sure the Baroness will make things FINE for you, and walks away from her into the gazebo, but this time...she FOLLOWS!
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