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Post by augiesannie on Dec 5, 2021 23:44:48 GMT
I read about this in CP's memoir - that Wise had promised to consider script changes to make the Captain a more interesting character. CP wrote a letter full of suggestions and then met with Ernest Lehmann and apparently these changes helped shape the Captain into the character we love today. I have wanted to read and post this letter forever, but it took me a while to hunt it down before I found it on one of my many TSOM DVDs. Then I messed up the screenshots, but happily, I was able to fill in the gaps from the youtube missisa recently posted. The format is too big for me to post directly, so I've saved them in a google photo album and hope you enjoy them. Sorry that some are more readable than others but I think it's all there.
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Post by missisa on Dec 6, 2021 13:51:39 GMT
Wow, many interesting things can be read in that letter! For a moment I felt like it was a post from CP on this forum 😂 How well he knows the character and surely RW took a lot of ideas from there (although he clearly discarded others). It would have been great to see M and CvT sing together on another song, and see him play the piano, although I greatly disagree with Mr Plummer in his objection about the Edelweiss song 😅 Thanks for posting this, augiesannie !
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Post by dontevenknowher on Dec 8, 2021 4:09:45 GMT
This was really intriguing! Such an interesting look into his thought process and analysis on his role. The part about his singing lessons really interests me, as that’s the one thing I would have wanted to ask him about his time with this movie. He mentions in his book about having been able to (contentiously) negotiate saving the official recording session until after filming so he could accomplish more with his vocal studies. I’ve often wondered how much, if any, it irked him that he put in all that time and effort only to get dubbed. I wholeheartedly believe dubbing him was the right choice. I don’t say that to rag on his voice at all, but rather with a talent like JA leading, you had to have similar levels of expertise in the other singing roles. However, I do think CP’s voice is endearing and fits more with the idea of the Captain as an amateur enthusiast musician. But knowing that CP had a bit of an ego (which was rightfully earned, in some regards), I’ve often wondered how much it bothered him to get dubbed. I suspect he likely saw it as a good start for working towards his production of Cyrano, but who wouldn’t be at least a little peeved to work on something only for it to be scrapped like that.
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 9, 2021 23:23:17 GMT
In this letter CP said that the character of the Captain hid a deep dissatisfaction with life and himself; this should show itself in his sardonic wit, as he tries to cover this up. Also, his manner should reflect his naval training with his aristocratic bearing, which means he should remain very severe and relentless throughout the film, with clipped speech, and definitely not appearing to be a pushover (as in the play) - like Edward Rochester in the novel Jane Eyre. Also, his clothes should reflect his background. I thought this clip would be interesting to watch, because it contains all Georg's snarky passages, most of which I assume CP put in because his character bears no resemblance to Georg in the play who WAS a pushover! Also, he absolutely does look the part! www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQx6FRCfOhI
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Post by augiesannie on Dec 10, 2021 0:39:11 GMT
This was really intriguing! Such an interesting look into his thought process and analysis on his role. The part about his singing lessons really interests me, as that’s the one thing I would have wanted to ask him about his time with this movie. He mentions in his book about having been able to (contentiously) negotiate saving the official recording session until after filming so he could accomplish more with his vocal studies. I’ve often wondered how much, if any, it irked him that he put in all that time and effort only to get dubbed. I wholeheartedly believe dubbing him was the right choice. I don’t say that to rag on his voice at all, but rather with a talent like JA leading, you had to have similar levels of expertise in the other singing roles. However, I do think CP’s voice is endearing and fits more with the idea of the Captain as an amateur enthusiast musician. But knowing that CP had a bit of an ego (which was rightfully earned, in some regards), I’ve often wondered how much it bothered him to get dubbed. I suspect he likely saw it as a good start for working towards his production of Cyrano, but who wouldn’t be at least a little peeved to work on something only for it to be scrapped like that. that is interesting because I've seen him quoted as saying, well, it was my voice leading into the songs, they just needed to dub the big major parts of the songs to be on JA's level. I wonder if that is really true or whether he bent the truth a little bit.
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galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
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Post by galan on Dec 10, 2021 1:41:43 GMT
Okay, I'm in the middle of reading these screenshots, but had to stop and comment: TSOM x Jane Eyre, I am literally working on that right now. Initially saw that 15+ years ago, but...yes! I feel vindicated!
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Post by augiesannie on Dec 13, 2021 1:04:22 GMT
Okay, I'm in the middle of reading these screenshots, but had to stop and comment: TSOM x Jane Eyre, I am literally working on that right now. Initially saw that 15+ years ago, but...yes! I feel vindicated! I wrote very specific Jane Eyre thing I was never very satisfied with. Recently I had another JE inspired idea which I will never get to ... so I am glad you will be scratching that itch!!
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galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
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Post by galan on Dec 13, 2021 5:00:00 GMT
It'll be a while: combo of figuring out all the nuance of adapting JE to TSOM (mad wife in the attic won't work and even though I like my version of the Captain's secret and think it makes sense, I don't know how everyone else will feel), and the last multi-chapter thing I wrote took almost nine years. *insert exhausted look here* Granted, that involves three years of cheffing and that's very stressful, and whilst not cheffing, I finished the last half in about 1.5 years. But let's try to not have that experience again.
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laurynvi
Full Member
I ask you to stay.
Posts: 212
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Post by laurynvi on Dec 15, 2021 1:47:34 GMT
Thank you for sharing these screen grabs augiesannie! These are absolutely fascinating. Love how we get to see the making of the dynamic between G and Max and G and Elsa. Interesting point too about being "dissatisfied" with his life - I think we often write about him that way in FF, sort of uncomfortable in his own skin and with his own sort, which is why it makes so much sense when he goes and falls for Maria. And how does he manage to turn the "schmaltzy" Edelweiss into the tentative, wistful, heart-tugging thing that he does???
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Post by dontevenknowher on Dec 15, 2021 4:13:15 GMT
This was really intriguing! Such an interesting look into his thought process and analysis on his role. The part about his singing lessons really interests me, as that’s the one thing I would have wanted to ask him about his time with this movie. He mentions in his book about having been able to (contentiously) negotiate saving the official recording session until after filming so he could accomplish more with his vocal studies. I’ve often wondered how much, if any, it irked him that he put in all that time and effort only to get dubbed. I wholeheartedly believe dubbing him was the right choice. I don’t say that to rag on his voice at all, but rather with a talent like JA leading, you had to have similar levels of expertise in the other singing roles. However, I do think CP’s voice is endearing and fits more with the idea of the Captain as an amateur enthusiast musician. But knowing that CP had a bit of an ego (which was rightfully earned, in some regards), I’ve often wondered how much it bothered him to get dubbed. I suspect he likely saw it as a good start for working towards his production of Cyrano, but who wouldn’t be at least a little peeved to work on something only for it to be scrapped like that. that is interesting because I've seen him quoted as saying, well, it was my voice leading into the songs, they just needed to dub the big major parts of the songs to be on JA's level. I wonder if that is really true or whether he bent the truth a little bit. I don’t think he bent the truth per se, but they most likely only used his original vocals elided with the dubbed vocals in the first syllable or so. Sadly, I have a hard time discerning his vocal contribution. Interestingly, the singer who dubbed CP in this film also did the singing for Roger in 101 Dalmatians. Roger’s speaking is voiced by Ben Wright, who is everyone’s not so favorite Nazi, Herr Zeller. Additionally, the Disney Animators based Anita’s look off of none other than JA.
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Post by augiesannie on Dec 18, 2021 12:12:56 GMT
In this letter CP said that the character of the Captain hid a deep dissatisfaction with life and himself; this should show itself in his sardonic wit, as he tries to cover this up. Also, his manner should reflect his naval training with his aristocratic bearing, which means he should remain very severe and relentless throughout the film, with clipped speech, and definitely not appearing to be a pushover (as in the play) - like Edward Rochester in the novel Jane Eyre. Also, his clothes should reflect his background. I thought this clip would be interesting to watch, because it contains all Georg's snarky passages, most of which I assume CP put in because his character bears no resemblance to Georg in the play who WAS a pushover! Also, he absolutely does look the part! www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQx6FRCfOhIGosh, what an inspired idea (and a lot of work!) "I too, am a man of hidden talents."
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 19, 2021 0:39:43 GMT
Fortunately not my work! I can't think of anyone offhand who could not only 'build' up a complex and fascinating character like that, but also play him so convincingly. To me, that is what is so amazing about CP, he is entirely believable as CvT, and along with JA, drives the whole story along. A man of many talents, indeed.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 10, 2022 20:47:27 GMT
Wow, this was very enlightening! Thanks for posting!
My favorite things: -He realizes that most of the movie he has to be severe or the emotional scenes will not work. -He realizes that his wardrobe will need to fit his military no nonsense background. -He wants there to be a real fight between him and Maria (do you think this means that The Argument was not in the original script he read?) -The part about how conversations with Elsa flow easily until the breakup conversation, where they finally have to stop their elegant surface level banter. -The part about the contrast between conversations with glamous Elsa and simple Maria. -I can't believe that he didn't like Edelweiss! A witty solo describing his helplessness in falling for Maria would never have packed the same punch. -It was his doing that he sneaks in on the kids singing TSOM and joins in? I love that part of the movie so much!! Good job Chris!
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 22, 2022 23:06:49 GMT
Does anybody know if The Argument appears in the play? (i.e. was it all Chris's idea?)
I know he told Julie not to be afraid of really letting rip at him during their altercation!
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 26, 2022 0:37:29 GMT
Interesting that CP wanted to speak with an 'Austrian rhythm'...turned down by Robt Wise - WISELY, I think! - especially if the others weren't speaking that way.
But I DO think it would have been dreamy if CP had played the piano (as he's so professional): he wanted Maria and him to share a love of music, which would have made so much sense, and he would have been so much more at ease doing so. Maybe she could have joined in singing to his playing...WOW! That would have been amazing, and very endearing.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 27, 2022 23:08:16 GMT
But I DO think it would have been dreamy if CP had played the piano (as he's so professional): he wanted Maria and him to share a love of music, which would have made so much sense, and he would have been so much more at ease doing so. Maybe she could have joined in singing to his playing...WOW! That would have been amazing, and very endearing. This happens in my daydreams all the time.
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