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Post by lemacd on Jan 31, 2022 20:47:18 GMT
 I haven't had so much fun since we put glue on Fräulein Josephine's toothbrush.I can't understand how children as nice as you can play such tricks.
It's easy. But why do it?How else can we get Father's attention?Oh, I see. We'll have to think about that one. All right, over here!
Maria plans to teach them something to sing for the Baroness and clearly planned to do so before deciding to help the children get their father's attention in a less 'torture the governess' kind of way. So did she just kill two birds with one stone (so to speak, I understand that is a very un-woke expression but I'm old and very sleepy almost all the time so please don't come at me)? Was it a happy coincidence that singing got Capt. Daddy's attention as well as enchant the baroness? Am I really terrible at discussion questions? I already know the answer to the last one, so... yeah. On a side note: Lousia is my soul sister in this cap. |
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 1, 2022 0:19:10 GMT
Do they mean that if they got rid of their governess then their father would have to look after them (or at least, be in charge of them?) - they might have had more of his attention this way, but he would've been pretty cross with them! They certainly lost no time after Maria arrived (frogs and pinecones come to mind)!
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Post by lemacd on Feb 1, 2022 2:56:31 GMT
quite possibly, pulling pranks was a way for them to make him cut his trips to Vienna or wherever he would run away to... he would be quite cross, but at least he had to come home and deal with them.
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laurynvi
Full Member
I ask you to stay.
Posts: 212
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Post by laurynvi on Feb 1, 2022 2:58:16 GMT
There must have been some backstory to Maria's childhood (well explored in many FFs) where music equates to family in her subconscious. I mean, she almost became a nun because she climbed a tree and heard the nuns singing over the wall. Need to welcome a Baroness into the family? Sing a song! Recalcitrant unreachable father? Sing a song! (And it totally works!)
I agree with you Indigo, I think no matter how cross G was at them chasing off a governess, he would at least need to come home and oversee them until the next one could be found...
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Post by missisa on Feb 1, 2022 8:55:49 GMT
Answering the initial question by lemacd, I think that it was a happy coincidence that singing got Captain's attention as well as enchant the baroness. Not only the performance went well, but she also chose a song that was in Daddy's memory after all! As you said, the song was something planned before the idea of finding out a solution for the father's attention issue. I've always thought that for Maria it's a separate topic that she wants to think about and she actually leaves it on standby on the mountain when it's time to teach them the song. Fortunately, the song "kills two birds with one stone"! |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 2, 2022 1:42:05 GMT
First of all, how much fun can really be had putting glue on a toothbrush? They wouldn't have seen her brushing her teeth. I guess they could have seen her with the handle sticking out of her mouth, muffled yelling for Frau Schmidt to come help her. It couldn't have been as fun as picnicking in the mountains all day is all I'm saying.
I never thought that Maria's original plan with the guitar was to learn a song for the baroness. I thought she just brought it so they could sing songs together as part of a fun filled day. Then she figured out that running the governesses off was just a plea for attention, and she immediately hatched a plan to have them sing a song for the captain's guest in order to earn them positive attention from him for a change.
Though do they get his negative attention when they run off governesses? Or just his presence? The way he talks to Maria, everything that went wrong with the other 11 governesses was all their own fault. Does he yell at his kids about the pranks? Or does he have to pretend even to them that it wasn't their fault - otherwise he would have to admit to himself that his little darlings are actually monsters because he is not parenting them?
Back to the singing - Maria could not have known how deeply the song was going to affect the captain, of course. Though, maybe she did know from her own experiences how healing music can be. She knows from FS that music was banned from the house. So I think the goals that she formed in this scene are to both please the captain by entertaining his guest, and also make him see that music should return to the villa. And she succeeded on both counts.
What are they eating/drinking in this pic? Fruit, bread, pop? This all would have been available at the market probably.
I would have been doing exactly what Louisa is doing too, Lemacd!
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Post by lemacd on Feb 2, 2022 5:04:46 GMT
reverendcaptain, the next bit of dialogue from what I posted with the cap is the children asking what they are going to do and Maria says that she was going to teach them something to sing for the baroness and that is when they say that their father doesn't like them to sing. So I am pretty sure she had that goal in mind, but I'm sure it was meant to be more fun than work. And it's a super interesting point, that he always blamed the governesses, so it is very possible that he didn't get upset with them. But I doubt he was in a very good mood so it is all the same, isn't it...
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 3, 2022 0:26:14 GMT
I seem to remember that Robt Wise said in one documentary that he got Friedrich to send Kurt a really high ball like that so people could see the beautiful scenery behind- otherwise the camera was too low down for it to be seen!
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Post by missisa on Feb 7, 2022 8:46:18 GMT
I seem to remember that Robt Wise said in one documentary that he got Friedrich to send Kurt a really high ball like that so people could see the beautiful scenery behind- otherwise the camera was too low down for it to be seen! Well, the Baroness was right: "the mountains are magnificent, really magnificent" 😂👌 |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 10, 2022 20:18:30 GMT
reverendcaptain , the next bit of dialogue from what I posted with the cap is the children asking what they are going to do and Maria says that she was going to teach them something to sing for the baroness and that is when they say that their father doesn't like them to sing. So I am pretty sure she had that goal in mind, but I'm sure it was meant to be more fun than work. And it's a super interesting point, that he always blamed the governesses, so it is very possible that he didn't get upset with them. But I doubt he was in a very good mood so it is all the same, isn't it... I see your point. Though, I still think even with the "Let's think of something to sing for the baroness when she comes" line, that Maria had just come up with that plan in the moment. She had always intended to sing with them, but then the perfect opportunity to solve the children's problem and help change the captain's attitude presented itself. That's one of the best parts about this forum - we can all see the same thing but take away different viewpoints to talk about.  |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 10, 2022 20:21:00 GMT
I seem to remember that Robt Wise said in one documentary that he got Friedrich to send Kurt a really high ball like that so people could see the beautiful scenery behind- otherwise the camera was too low down for it to be seen! Yes, I read this somewhere. They wanted to get the ice caves on the tops of the mountains into the movie somehow but couldn't figure out a way to do it, so they worked it into the ball game. I think the children took a field trip to see the caves while they were in Salzburg. I forget which book I read this in now. |
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Post by lemacd on Feb 11, 2022 1:15:59 GMT
reverendcaptain , the next bit of dialogue from what I posted with the cap is the children asking what they are going to do and Maria says that she was going to teach them something to sing for the baroness and that is when they say that their father doesn't like them to sing. So I am pretty sure she had that goal in mind, but I'm sure it was meant to be more fun than work. And it's a super interesting point, that he always blamed the governesses, so it is very possible that he didn't get upset with them. But I doubt he was in a very good mood so it is all the same, isn't it... I see your point. Though, I still think even with the "Let's think of something to sing for the baroness when she comes" line, that Maria had just come up with that plan in the moment. She had always intended to sing with them, but then the perfect opportunity to solve the children's problem and help change the captain's attitude presented itself. That's one of the best parts about this forum - we can all see the same thing but take away different viewpoints to talk about.  mmmyeah but it wasn't very spontaneous. she brought the guitar, planned to have them sing... the shift from "we'll have think about [getting Father's attention] to "all right, over here!" was decidedly getting back to her plan for the day. I don't really get an "aha! let's get his attention by singing!" vibe. As you say, we don't all have to agree or see things the same way. Thanks for the discussion. |
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Post by Chris&Byng on Apr 14, 2022 15:43:07 GMT
There must have been some backstory to Maria's childhood (well explored in many FFs) where music equates to family in her subconscious. I mean, she almost became a nun because she climbed a tree and heard the nuns singing over the wall. Need to welcome a Baroness into the family? Sing a song! Recalcitrant unreachable father? Sing a song! (And it totally works!) I agree with you Indigo, I think no matter how cross G was at them chasing off a governess, he would at least need to come home and oversee them until the next one could be found... For so many people who are desperate for attention, ANY attention is good - even if it's negative! |
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Post by Chris&Byng on Apr 14, 2022 15:54:50 GMT
Answering the initial question by lemacd , I think that it was a happy coincidence that singing got Captain's attention as well as enchant the baroness. Not only the performance went well, but she also chose a song that was in Daddy's memory after all! As you said, the song was something planned before the idea of finding out a solution for the father's attention issue. I've always thought that for Maria it's a separate topic that she wants to think about and she actually leaves it on standby on the mountain when it's time to teach them the song. Fortunately, the song "kills two birds with one stone"! The part about 'singing' that I have always found interesting is the position Maria puts them in when they perform for the Baroness. The Captain always had them lined up in order of age and Maria's arrangement only serves to reinforce her point that you can have discipline and order with a healthy dose of disorder.
Anyone who has sung in a choir or trio will know that the whole process of learning a new song and perfecting it requires discipline - it's just a very different discipline vs. the Captain's 'methods'. Singing is hard work, and I think Maria became the children's friend, yes, but also was able to provide structure and discipline in a different way, one that was much more effective than what the children were used to.
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Post by bluestrawberries on Apr 16, 2022 13:20:18 GMT
I love this analysis! never thought of it that way - that whole idea of a special order within chaos, but it makes perfect sense! especially when you view the whole singing thing in this context
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 19, 2022 22:10:12 GMT
Answering the initial question by lemacd , I think that it was a happy coincidence that singing got Captain's attention as well as enchant the baroness. Not only the performance went well, but she also chose a song that was in Daddy's memory after all! As you said, the song was something planned before the idea of finding out a solution for the father's attention issue. I've always thought that for Maria it's a separate topic that she wants to think about and she actually leaves it on standby on the mountain when it's time to teach them the song. Fortunately, the song "kills two birds with one stone"! The part about 'singing' that I have always found interesting is the position Maria puts them in when they perform for the Baroness. The Captain always had them lined up in order of age and Maria's arrangement only serves to reinforce her point that you can have discipline and order with a healthy dose of disorder.
Anyone who has sung in a choir or trio will know that the whole process of learning a new song and perfecting it requires discipline - it's just a very different discipline vs. the Captain's 'methods'. Singing is hard work, and I think Maria became the children's friend, yes, but also was able to provide structure and discipline in a different way, one that was much more effective than what the children were used to.
It is amazing how easily children can be disciplined, hard working, and well behaved when they are doing something that they want to be doing. Maria is giving then the attention and fun they are desperate for, and in turn they are giving her whatever she asks of them. Going back to your comment about any attention (even negative) being good attention to a person desperate for attention - Do you think the Von Trapp kids were a nightmare in school too to get their teachers (or father) to notice them? |
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Post by bluestrawberries on Apr 26, 2022 3:28:03 GMT
The part about 'singing' that I have always found interesting is the position Maria puts them in when they perform for the Baroness. The Captain always had them lined up in order of age and Maria's arrangement only serves to reinforce her point that you can have discipline and order with a healthy dose of disorder.
Anyone who has sung in a choir or trio will know that the whole process of learning a new song and perfecting it requires discipline - it's just a very different discipline vs. the Captain's 'methods'. Singing is hard work, and I think Maria became the children's friend, yes, but also was able to provide structure and discipline in a different way, one that was much more effective than what the children were used to.
It is amazing how easily children can be disciplined, hard working, and well behaved when they are doing something that they want to be doing. Maria is giving then the attention and fun they are desperate for, and in turn they are giving her whatever she asks of them. Going back to your comment about any attention (even negative) being good attention to a person desperate for attention - Do you think the Von Trapp kids were a nightmare in school too to get their teachers (or father) to notice them? ooh i can totally see them acting up at school! might be a bit more difficult because i assume they'd be more separated compared to at home where they can operate as a pack (lol) but i can totally see them colluding to independently cause trouble in their respective groups / levels so their father would have to be called down to school |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Oct 23, 2022 3:24:14 GMT
"How else can we get father's attention?" This is such an important line, and a turning point in a way. The kids all adore Maria already. She is kind and entertaining and giving them the freedom they so desperately want. But having fun is different than solving the problem of how to get their father's attention. I think it was smart of Liesl to try to enlist Maria's help. And it worked!
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Post by indigoblue on Oct 31, 2022 0:05:53 GMT
It's quite an insightful observation for a '16 yr old', and it also gives Maria the answer to what must have been puzzling her; having only known the Captain for less than 24hrs before he left for Vienna, she couldn't have known that the kids weren't getting enough not only of his attention, but ANY attention.
So she responds, by lavishing them with all the attention that they need. It's amazing how they all knew how to ride a bike!
So when they sing SOM for the baroness in the sitting room, they get what they want - his attention. Must have been a perplexing thing for the baroness to observe unfolding: I wonder how much she realises is going on before Edelweiss?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 3, 2022 19:02:35 GMT
How much Elsa thinks is going on probably has a lot to do with her previous relationships. Were her prior suitors and husband faithful to her? Would she assume that a man that is courting her would be? Or does she think all men are cheaters, and therefore assume the worst about G&M from the beginning?
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