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Post by goldenbeauty on Feb 5, 2024 20:31:08 GMT
Forgive me, I have yet to see a thread about this.
It's interesting to me that we never really see Georg find out about Liesl and Rolfe. He now knows who Rolfe is after his return from Vienna. And the man isn't stupid... A young boy throwing pebbles at his 16 year old daughters window... He probably can easily put 2 and 2 together. But the situation is made so much worse when Rolfe salutes Hitler [knowing very well just how Austrian Georg is by the way].
Yet nothing was mentioned after. Sure he got so much better and more relaxed, but no way he would ever approve of said relationship if it ever came out before the escape, or if Rolfe tried to come back once more before the last bit of the movie.
So how do you think Georg would have reacted if he had in fact ever caught Liesl with Rolfe?
During 16 Going on 17 all I could think was "Georg, sweetie... Your daughter is down in the gazebo getting swooned by a Nazi youth."
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Post by thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love on Feb 6, 2024 2:35:02 GMT
I was just thinking about this recently... If I was Georg, I would be highly concerned and want to know a) just how involved Liesl and Rolf are, and b) how much she knows about his politics if they are a couple. (Georg is very lucky no Hitler Youth recruiters got their hooks in his children while they were neglected and vulnerable lol.)
I'm sure the real reason we never saw Georg talk to Liesl about it is that the movie was long enough already, but for an in-universe explanation... Maybe he still didn't feel comfortable discussing something so personal with his little girl. Maybe he assumed Liesl was too smart to reciprocate the feelings of a boy like that. Maybe it just slipped his mind during a summer in which he had a lot on his plate, like trying not to fall in love with his governess đ
If he had caught them together? I imagine he would've scared Rolf off with some stern words. Liesl would've been furious, but G would explain the Hitler salute and she'd have some second thoughts. I think I read a fic once where Liesl knew Rolf sympathized with the Germans and didn't mind, but in my opinion, it would've been an instant dealbreaker if she'd known.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 6, 2024 18:56:20 GMT
Bearing in mind the isolated life the kids must have lead, I think it quite likely that Georg was in denial about his 'sixteen year old' being interested in boys at all!
It's very easy for parents to think their children remain in the prepubescent phase forever, especially if they see no evidence to the contrary.
I think it would have been a big shock to this regimented, often-absent father to realise that Liesl was in a relationship at all, let alone a Nazi sympathiser!
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Post by galwaygal87 on Feb 6, 2024 22:53:50 GMT
I've thought a lot about this scene over the years, and I wonder how much is about Rolfe and/or Liesl and how much is about Fredrich and potentially Kurt. Georg is not an ignorant man, and he sees the writing on the wall. Fredrich is only three years younger than Rolfe, and it would not be unnatural for him to fear his sons becoming brainwashed or forced into participating in Hitler Youth. It's very clear that while he is not connecting with his children at this point, he loves them deeply and fears for the world in which they will come of age. Does Georg look at Rolfe stating "Heil Hitler" and fear that his sons will one day do the same? His comment to Elsa that he feels he's "in a world that's slipping away" certainly hints that he doesn't entirely know how to navigate the future and that scares him (even though he won't admit it).
Maybe I'm reading way too much into this scene, and he is just a suspicious father of a sixteen year old girl. But I've always felt it was an under rated moment in the film in which we first see Georg show some vulnerability. I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on this topic!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 7, 2024 1:37:02 GMT
To me, Georg appears to be willfully ignorant about Liesl and Rolfe. He knows she slipped out during dinner after she confirmed that Rolfe delivered the telegram, and he let her know he knew by questioning about her in Maria's room later. Does he know Rolfe is a Nazi supporter at this point? Absolutely not. Though, if he did, and explained that to Liesl, would she even understand it? These kids seem SO sheltered, and he seems to want it that way. He doesn't talk about politics in front of them. This is risky because then all of their (very limited) info is coming from other sources (friends at school, people in town, etc.) who may have different views than Georg does. Though, Liesl doesn't seem to have any views at all, even from other people. "Who's we?" says to me that she doesn't know anything about Rolfe's politics at all, nor has she even considered them. For Georg, I think some of this really hits home during The Argument. Maria very bluntly points out that Liesl is fast approaching being a woman, and Georg is ignoring that. Friedrich wants to be a man and his father doesn't spend any time with him. These kids are growing up and if Georg wants to influence the adults they turn into, he'd better start being part of their lives. At first galwaygal87 I was thinking that Friedrich and Kurt being lured into the Hitler Youth was unthinkable. How could children of an Austrian Navy captain turn against Austria? But, if Georg never explains to them what is actually going on, and is never even really at home, they could be easily been swayed by someone telling them lies that sound like truths. It's scary stuff. "In a world that's disappearing, I'm afraid" is very vulnerable. I'm glad you brought that up. I tend to focus on his vulnerable moments falling in love with Maria, but you are right, this is one of the first vulnerable moments we see from him. I always imagined him to think of himself and his children as a unit that are trying to navigate the very uncertain times, but maybe part of the uncertainty is about his children and their potential views as adults. Idk. I don't see him as acknowledging that his children will ever be adults, so I still think he is talking about everyone around him, not his family. It is telling that Elsa makes no attempt to discuss what is bothering him. Maria, on the other hand, seems very attuned to his inner struggles once they are a couple.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 7, 2024 2:50:20 GMT
About Liesl and Rolfe - it is interesting that Maria tunes into it right away - after Liesl asks who delivered the telegram and asks to be excused, Maria is on high alert. Georg DOES ask about Lieslâs whereabouts later but I never before thought about that as suspecting there was a boy involved or anything. Iâve got to go back and watch that again!! Maybe Georg doesnât talk about politics at home because he doesnât want his children repeating what they hear at home elsewhere? It makes a lot of sense to Georg would be concerned about Friedrich and Kurt. And YES I agree that âslipping awayâ moment is so touching (underscored by the Edelweiss I believe.). Funny, up until now I thought of âSound of Musicâ and the Apology as his first vulnerable moment but it seems he had a soft side from the start. This conversation also makes me wonder, when Georg confronts Rolf in the graveyard, with the different outcomes in the play vs. the movie, does he know who Rolf is/was to Liesl?
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Post by thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love on Feb 7, 2024 5:04:37 GMT
Does he know Rolfe is a Nazi supporter at this point? Absolutely not. Though, if he did, and explained that to Liesl, would she even understand it? ... Though, Liesl doesn't seem to have any views at all, even from other people. "Who's we?" says to me that she doesn't know anything about Rolfe's politics at all, nor has she even considered them. Liesl is pretty naive, but I'm of the opinion she would understand if Georg told her her bf was a Nazi. The kids are sheltered, but they do go to school so they're not completely isolated, and Austrian Nazis were already causing trouble before the Ancshluss, like assassinating the Austrian chancellor (which I somehow never heard of until recently!). That's big enough news that I don't think the older kids could've missed it. So even if Liesl doesn't have the full picture and doesn't realize the urgency of Austria's situation in 1938, I think she would know what Nazis are and the basics of what they believe. But yeah, I agree that Liesl had no idea what Rolf's politics were and didn't think to ask. It's pretty common for teenagers (and many adults tbh) to be in their own little worlds and not realize how politics affect their lives. She probably learned a big lesson about choosing her next boyfriend đ Though I guess another question is how Rolf himself never said anything if he was already drinking the Kool-Aid...
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Post by thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love on Feb 7, 2024 5:17:49 GMT
This conversation also makes me wonder, when Georg confronts Rolf in the graveyard, with the different outcomes in the play vs. the movie, does he know who Rolf is/was to Liesl? I think he definitely knows based on Liesl's gasp when she sees Rolf - she and Georg make eye contact right afterward, and I kind of read it that as the moment he knows, and she knows that he knows. And then the way she cries, "Rolf, please!" must remove any doubts. Jumping off that, I've always wondered why they changed the ending in the movie from the musical (in case anyone doesn't know, Rolf covers for them in the OG Broadway show). I personally like the movie ending better because the confrontation is more climactic, but maybe I'm just more used to it lol. What about y'all?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 9, 2024 20:47:58 GMT
Does he know Rolfe is a Nazi supporter at this point? Absolutely not. Though, if he did, and explained that to Liesl, would she even understand it? ... Though, Liesl doesn't seem to have any views at all, even from other people. "Who's we?" says to me that she doesn't know anything about Rolfe's politics at all, nor has she even considered them. Liesl is pretty naive, but I'm of the opinion she would understand if Georg told her her bf was a Nazi. The kids are sheltered, but they do go to school so they're not completely isolated, and Austrian Nazis were already causing trouble before the Ancshluss, like assassinating the Austrian chancellor (which I somehow never heard of until recently!). That's big enough news that I don't think the older kids could've missed it. So even if Liesl doesn't have the full picture and doesn't realize the urgency of Austria's situation in 1938, I think she would know what Nazis are and the basics of what they believe. But yeah, I agree that Liesl had no idea what Rolf's politics were and didn't think to ask. It's pretty common for teenagers (and many adults tbh) to be in their own little worlds and not realize how politics affect their lives. She probably learned a big lesson about choosing her next boyfriend đ Though I guess another question is how Rolf himself never said anything if he was already drinking the Kool-Aid... I see what you're saying thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love, maybe Liesl isn't quite as "innocent as a rose" as she seems. She might understand the ugliness of Rolf's beliefs if it were pointed out to her. Do you think Rolf knows this and that is why he doesn't tell Liesl about them? Or does he see himself as secretive and important, and talking to Liesl about politics would diminish the mystique he thinks he has? As for choosing her next boyfriend - Rolf was a Nazi who was potentially just using her to spy on her father, he broke her heart, he pointed a gun at her family, and he turned them in to the Nazi superiors. She has nowhere to go but up! I think she learned several life lessons here.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 10, 2024 0:29:35 GMT
This conversation also makes me wonder, when Georg confronts Rolf in the graveyard, with the different outcomes in the play vs. the movie, does he know who Rolf is/was to Liesl? I think he definitely knows based on Liesl's gasp when she sees Rolf - she and Georg make eye contact right afterward, and I kind of read it that as the moment he knows, and she knows that he knows. And then the way she cries, "Rolf, please!" must remove any doubts. Jumping off that, I've always wondered why they changed the ending in the movie from the musical (in case anyone doesn't know, Rolf covers for them in the OG Broadway show). I personally like the movie ending better because the confrontation is more climactic, but maybe I'm just more used to it lol. What about y'all? I like to think of Rolf as not necessarily a bad person, but someone who was easily taken advantage of. I was happy to see him protect Liesl and her family in the play because this goes along with my desire for him to be a good guy at heart. That being said, I like the movie just as it is because it provides an opportunity for Georg to show that he is brave, smart, kind, and loyal. This is ultimately more satisfying to me than Rolf ending up being a good guy.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 10, 2024 0:41:17 GMT
Maybe Georg doesnât talk about politics at home because he doesnât want his children repeating what they hear at home elsewhere? Why is this? Because he doesnt know who is loyal is Austria and who isnât, so it might not be safe for them to saying they are loyal? He isnât shy about stating his beliefs. Though he can handle himself better than children can. Iâm was going to say it was probably obvious to everyone what his childrenâs politics were, with him being a war hero and all. Though maybe previous service did not guarantee that you were against the Nazis? Maybe peopleâs views and motives were not obvious at all. Therefore there is a lot of âworrying about not finding a friend at the partyâ or not finding like minded people for your children to associate with so itâs better to just stay quiet.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 10, 2024 1:30:21 GMT
reverendcaptain, that is just beautiful what you wrote about the satisfaction of seeing Georg at his best. Thereâs a line in the play where Georg says to Brigitta, half the people at the party arenât talking to the other half. But I donât think it was only about like minded people (maybe this is obvious). Iâve always assumed that the pre-Anschluss environment must have been very tense, with people in opposition cautious about or even terrified to reveal their loyalties as the likely outcome became clearer. They probably anticipated Zeller would throw them in jail when the time came and they were right.
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Post by thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love on Feb 13, 2024 3:25:31 GMT
Liesl is pretty naive, but I'm of the opinion she would understand if Georg told her her bf was a Nazi. The kids are sheltered, but they do go to school so they're not completely isolated, and Austrian Nazis were already causing trouble before the Ancshluss, like assassinating the Austrian chancellor (which I somehow never heard of until recently!). That's big enough news that I don't think the older kids could've missed it. So even if Liesl doesn't have the full picture and doesn't realize the urgency of Austria's situation in 1938, I think she would know what Nazis are and the basics of what they believe. But yeah, I agree that Liesl had no idea what Rolf's politics were and didn't think to ask. It's pretty common for teenagers (and many adults tbh) to be in their own little worlds and not realize how politics affect their lives. She probably learned a big lesson about choosing her next boyfriend đ Though I guess another question is how Rolf himself never said anything if he was already drinking the Kool-Aid... She might understand the ugliness of Rolf's beliefs if it were pointed out to her. Do you think Rolf knows this and that is why he doesn't tell Liesl about them? Or does he see himself as secretive and important, and talking to Liesl about politics would diminish the mystique he thinks he has? It's hard to say because Rolf is obviously a conflicted young man at the end, and he's only a side character so we don't know why he does anything... But if I had to guess, he was instructed to keep his ears open for useful info about the Captain. He met Liesl and thought that getting close to her would help his "mission." At first, he didn't take her seriously so he never bothered to make sure their politics lined up. After he did catch feelings (and I really think he did; bro looked so smitten in that gazebo lol) he might have been scared she would disagree with him, since he seems to know Georg is anti-Nazi, and/or that he would lose his chance to keep gathering info if she did. His sexism probably also plays a role -- after all, he tells her during "Sixteen Going on Seventeen" that she doesn't know anything about the world, so he would assume she also has no meaningful opinions on politics.
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Post by thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love on Feb 13, 2024 3:28:24 GMT
I think he definitely knows based on Liesl's gasp when she sees Rolf - she and Georg make eye contact right afterward, and I kind of read it that as the moment he knows, and she knows that he knows. And then the way she cries, "Rolf, please!" must remove any doubts. Jumping off that, I've always wondered why they changed the ending in the movie from the musical (in case anyone doesn't know, Rolf covers for them in the OG Broadway show). I personally like the movie ending better because the confrontation is more climactic, but maybe I'm just more used to it lol. What about y'all? I like to think of Rolf as not necessarily a bad person, but someone who was easily taken advantage of. I was happy to see him protect Liesl and her family in the play because this goes along with my desire for him to be a good guy at heart. That being said, I like the movie just as it is because it provides an opportunity for Georg to show that he is brave, smart, kind, and loyal. This is ultimately more satisfying to me than Rolf ending up being a good guy. That's a good take! I also don't think Rolf is a terrible person and could've easily gone down a different path, but I'm a tragedy enjoyer so I kind of like seeing him doom himself in that final scene hahaha. But yes, it's also very satisfying to see Georg be a badass and protect his family.
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Post by goldenbeauty on Feb 15, 2024 5:22:07 GMT
It's interesting Rolfe lets them go in the play vs. the movie.
I feel like I like the movie version better because it does make it more intense. Also because and this might be my own ideals and beliefs getting in the way, but... Is Rolfe letting them go because he kinda doesn't actually agree with the movement or letting them go because it's Liesl and he does care for her? If it's the former... Does he plan on ever escaping himself so he won't be a part of the Third Reich? Or does he actually agree with their movement? Because if it's the latter, it's a very very nice gesture, but it won't change his beliefs and who he would become.
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Post by thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love on Feb 17, 2024 1:14:27 GMT
It's interesting Rolfe lets them go in the play vs. the movie. I feel like I like the movie version better because it does make it more intense. Also because and this might be my own ideals and beliefs getting in the way, but... Is Rolfe letting them go because he kinda doesn't actually agree with the movement or letting them go because it's Liesl and he does care for her? If it's the former... Does he plan on ever escaping himself so he won't be a part of the Third Reich? Or does he actually agree with their movement? Because if it's the latter, it's a very very nice gesture, but it won't change his beliefs and who he would become. The only version of the stage show I've ever seen was The Sound of Music Live! on NBC forever ago, but if I remember right, Rolf does still pull a gun on Georg, but he backs off when Liesl jumps in front of her father. So it implies that he protects them more because of Liesl than anything else. Hopefully in that universe, it might plant the seed for him to question his beliefs. Jumping off that, it's pretty interesting that Liesl was the one who protected Georg and ultimately saved the family in the musical. Again, I like the movie better because it's so satisfying to see Georg go from a man who pushed his family away to one willing to sacrifice everything for them (and Christopher Plummer is just magnetic in that scene lol), but it's also kind of cool that musical!Liesl got to be the hero at the end.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 22, 2024 18:33:47 GMT
It's interesting Rolfe lets them go in the play vs. the movie. I feel like I like the movie version better because it does make it more intense. Also because and this might be my own ideals and beliefs getting in the way, but... Is Rolfe letting them go because he kinda doesn't actually agree with the movement or letting them go because it's Liesl and he does care for her? If it's the former... Does he plan on ever escaping himself so he won't be a part of the Third Reich? Or does he actually agree with their movement? Because if it's the latter, it's a very very nice gesture, but it won't change his beliefs and who he would become. The only version of the stage show I've ever seen was The Sound of Music Live! on NBC forever ago, but if I remember right, Rolf does still pull a gun on Georg, but he backs off when Liesl jumps in front of her father. So it implies that he protects them more because of Liesl than anything else. Hopefully in that universe, it might plant the seed for him to question his beliefs. Jumping off that, it's pretty interesting that Liesl was the one who protected Georg and ultimately saved the family in the musical. Again, I like the movie better because it's so satisfying to see Georg go from a man who pushed his family away to one willing to sacrifice everything for them (and Christopher Plummer is just magnetic in that scene lol), but it's also kind of cool that musical!Liesl got to be the hero at the end. Yes, definitely agree with you thoughts-of-joy-dreams-of-love and goldenbeauty, that the movieâs setup of âbadass Georgâ (I love that) is worth unredeeeming Rolf. That point about Rolfâs ambiguous motives for being the good guy is also so interesting, I hadnât thought of that.
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