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Post by utility_singer on Jan 14, 2014 2:25:50 GMT
It was a hereditary title, although he earned the right to it on his own as well. I'd love to get my hands on To the Last Salute. The real Georg just fascinates me.
eta: Agathe's grandfather died 6 years before she married Georg, so I don't think that's why he left her his estate. All this family dynamic stuff is so interesting.
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Post by lemacd on Jan 14, 2014 2:36:50 GMT
oh. well... we're just playing around, but if that's the facts, then there you go.
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 14, 2014 2:43:59 GMT
One of the previous generation of wonderful fanfic writers based a lot of her stuff on To The Last Salute. Which can be yours for aboutg $8 with shipping: product.half.ebay.com/_W0QQprZ57007287
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Post by utility_singer on Jan 14, 2014 3:01:05 GMT
Just ordered it...thanks!
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Post by lemacd on Jan 14, 2014 3:26:51 GMT
for a second there i thought you meant her fanfic could be bought... one writer i follow has written a slew of stories (not tsom) of pre-engagement, a slew of stories during engagement, and a slew of post wedding stories for her fandom and offers them as free ebook downloads. i thought that was interesting.
i thought about ordering that book for my husband, he's a nonfic war history buff. never got around to it. please tell me if it is a good read!!
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Post by utility_singer on Jan 14, 2014 3:56:47 GMT
Will do!
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 15, 2014 0:09:44 GMT
Can I add that if Robt Whitehead had 5 daughters and Agathe was the eldest, it would be common for him to leave nearly everything to her, and only a little to the others (I'm not sure how strong the custom of primogeniture was in Austria, but in England at that time it was the only reason large estates were kept intact, by leaving them entirely to the eldest...or eldest boy).
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Post by utility_singer on Jan 15, 2014 2:54:19 GMT
No, he had 5 kids. Three sons, two daughters. Agathe was a granddaughter. That's what I think was curious--of course, wikipedia is notorious for inaccuracies, so who knows if he left the entire estate (as it says), or just a large portion of it, to her.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2014 7:02:10 GMT
I'm not sure whether we have discussed this or whether this is the best place to be putting this but hey, this will do. I was so totally moved by lemacd's latest chapter of ILFYW with the letters of Georg to Agathe that I wanted to discuss this topic. (and lemacd, you did this just sooooo well that anything I say here will not do this justice) I mean we all KNOW that Georg loved Agathe but until I read the latest chapter of ILFYW, I never really thought of how much he loved her. Obviously so much that it would send him into despair and so much that he shut the world off, but wow, talk about totally intense! I think I actually felt a bit jealous in lieu of Maria of Georg's love for Agathe. Obviously we all write such wonderful backstories of the time between the puppet show and the party of M and G's increasing attraction and CP and JA have such chemistry that it is easy to see how they could have fallen in love with each other. But Georg love for Agathe was so intense and emotional, that it is almost a wonder that he found that kind of love again. Topic open for discussion (or ignoring - your choice. I just thought it had been too quiet around here)
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 20, 2014 11:11:43 GMT
what I loved about that chapter is that lemacd did something I wasn't quite able to do in Walled Garden, which was to see A&G's love through M's eyes, and the way M understands for the first time just how much he had lost, and what the love between man and woman, husband and wife, whatever, is so much more than she understood it could be. But surely we can't be saying that he would love M less intensely -- differently, yes, since M is a different person , and since he is older and has gone through such an ordeal. During my romance reading phase last summer, I read a book in which the main male character lost his fiancee as a young man and can't let himself fall in love again because, as he puts it, he loves like a madman - the women are different but, regardless, he is just a person who when he finally opens up (unbuttons, as it were), there are no limits. That's how I see G. I don't like stories that compare A&M, (I don't think you are saying that, @charleybec), it's like asking which of your children you love most. You love them all crazymad, just differently. I think M would understand this and not feel too jealous.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2014 11:58:46 GMT
No, not comparing M and A (and I agree, it is like comparing children or as JA says, choosing between puppies)
I guess my point was that I'm always just so focused on the M and G love story (who isn't) that taking a step back and looking at the A and G love story, I was just thinking of things in another way - like I hadn't really realised HOW much G loved A and that sort of thing. I do agree that his love for M is totally different from his love for A.
My other point, I guess is that since he HAD loved A with such a passion was that finding another love like that would almost seem impossible (although I give 3 cheers to our girl for being that love)
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 20, 2014 14:23:51 GMT
Yes! I love the idea of his finding something he thought he'd never find again. Have written about that recently, but I realize you haven't seen it. Also I have had a bit of an A&G backstory in my head for a while, maybe I'll write that someday.
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Post by mireille on Apr 20, 2014 18:49:57 GMT
I also loved lemacd last chapter. I’m as @charleybec , never really thought of G’s love for A. Of course we know it was there and that he loved her so much that he had to turn away from his children. (which the real Captain v Trapp never did in RL) As for new love, I think he desperately tried to find some kind of distraction, Elsa. Maybe hoping to find love. But once you’ve experienced love like he has, it is difficult to give yourself to another person like that. I’m happy he wanted to ‘give’ it to Maria!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2014 20:21:02 GMT
Have written about that recently, but I realize you haven't seen it. <cough cough> @augiesannie... Any clue to when we ARE going to be reading this mysterious new story of yours?
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Post by lemacd on Apr 21, 2014 14:28:47 GMT
ok, everyone... i'm blushing. i'm so glad everyone liked that chapter and those letters. and i'm glad they came across as romantic and not some poor attempt by a pathetic housewife to seem like she is some kind of expert. (notice i didn't say "pro"...)
there is going to be a huge challenge to reconcile the intensity he felt for his first wife to his feelings for maria. i have a lot of hills to climb. er, mountains. no, just hills. for one thing, maria read the letters. she might subconsciously compare. another thing, maria is quite sure she will never have that kind of love herself so she'll be full of doubt. so now i have to give G the words (to speak as well as write... good grief, what have i done?!) to convince her. finally, i have to explain how he can love again after losing someone who was his whole life. i like the children and puppies analogy, but it might not fit. the only living example i have to go with is my father in law and his second wife... and yeah, there are some things you just don't want to think too much about. *shudder*
not to mention, making y'all swoon a bit more.
oh, help.
the ace up my sleeve is the poem. which is posted under poems. and i go there repeatedly because i just love it.
i think the greatest thing about thinking G discovering that he can love again is that it is so unexpected that it is almost like she is his first love. what he expected, if he expected anything at all, was the kind of relationship he had with elsa. safe, predicable (well, i guess not really...) and undemanding. so this is not about G, it is really about M. it is about what she does for him. if i can articulate that, i think the rest of this story should be easy.
now... suggestions on how to even do that??
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Post by utility_singer on Apr 21, 2014 17:11:25 GMT
I've always been of the opinion that he wasn't willing to risk himself again, and that was precisely why he was with Elsa----that his social value to her was so great that she was willing to make that tradeoff (and of course, she did care for him, so was willing to make the deal), and that it allowed him to not feel as guilty about not loving her the way one should love a spouse? Not sure that makes sense when I write it but it does in my head.
Perhaps you need to set up a short trip home for him (a child's birthday? a holiday? or a sick child?) and that can push their feelings along a little bit, and then the letters could start to heat things up a bit? Not in a sexy time way, but in a 'fire burning in their hearts' way.
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Post by mireille on Apr 21, 2014 17:59:03 GMT
I need to think about this a moment..... but I love what you're doing lemacd . I'll get back soon.
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Post by lemacd on Apr 21, 2014 18:15:18 GMT
I've always been of the opinion that he wasn't willing to risk himself again, and that was precisely why he was with Elsa----that his social value to her was so great that she was willing to make that tradeoff (and of course, she did care for him, so was willing to make the deal), and that it allowed him to not feel as guilty about not loving her the way one should love a spouse? Not sure that makes sense when I write it but it does in my head. Perhaps you need to set up a short trip home for him (a child's birthday? a holiday? or a sick child?) and that can push their feelings along a little bit, and then the letters could start to heat things up a bit? Not in a sexy time way, but in a 'fire burning in their hearts' way. you're in my head. he's coming home for the holidays. there will be a turning point. then he has to leave again because he has a job after all. but... yay, letters. i have a very important idea for the end of this sucker, so there will be K rated sexy fun time. of the honeymoon variety. and that is all i'm going to say because i don't want to give it all away. i'm easy, but i'm not cheap. ahem.
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Post by lemacd on Apr 21, 2014 18:24:18 GMT
I need to think about this a moment..... but I love what you're doing lemacd . I'll get back soon. thanks! i'm mostly wondering if anyone has thoughts on how to express that he can love a second wife as much or more as the first wife, even when that first wife was his whole life, a woman he cherished, worshiped, and loved like no other. obviously he can't say things like "i never knew love until i met you." or the like. I mean, i suppose he can say "i never knew i could love again until i met you." but that is not powerfully convincing IMO because it is, in fact, comparing her to agathe even if he isn't mentioning names. "you saved me" is too reminiscent of his lakeside stroll with elsa. i guess the answer is that he cannot be "captain centered". what he feels for her is not about what she did for him, but for who and what she is alone. well, this has been most helpful. not that i'm even there yet. but still... thanks. still eager to hear what others have to say.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 19:13:24 GMT
I need to think about this a moment..... but I love what you're doing lemacd . I'll get back soon. Me too (but it is the middle of the night so I'll be back in a few hours)
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Post by mireille on Apr 21, 2014 19:14:58 GMT
I think this is the big question; Would he be willing to open his heart to another love? (Hopefully) Maria is letting him feels things again he thought he would never have after Agathe. In a new relationship, even if it’s only friendship, you want to know more about the other person to see if this person is worth the effort and the time you’re about to put in. I think these new beginnings are one of the rare occasions where we can show how you really are. Is someone willing to open his heart to you? The joy of being around someone who makes you feel better about yourself. And in his case, his children also. Maybe he discovers that he wants to know more about her and that makes him acknowledge that he is willing to share his past and maybe a future with her. Is it the same love as with Agathe, no. He is a different person, after all he’s been through. Yes Maria helped him with his children, but she didn’t ‘help’ him on a personal level. I think that was more Elsa’s doing. Elsa brought him back to reality, just not his children. Now that Elsa has left, what is his reality? I think he must find what he wants in life, just like Maria has to figure out what she’ll do without the Abbey. Okay hope this will trigger your mind a bit. Just my thoughts
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Post by lemacd on Apr 21, 2014 21:31:26 GMT
Interesting. Especially the bit about him being a different man now, not the same one that loved Agathe. Wow, good stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 23:06:58 GMT
i guess the answer is that he cannot be "captain centered". what he feels for her is not about what she did for him, but for who and what she is alone. This! my initial thoughts were exactly down this line. While not about to enter a religious discussion, I was thinking about the Biblical view of husbands and wives and how the husband should love the wife like Christ loved the church so to be completely 'other' person focused, so for Georg to be completely focused upon Maria and her needs and her loves and to be pleasing her snd making her feel cherished. That was probably saying what you were saying before lemacd so sorry if that's just a re-hash. Then I read what mireille said about how Georg is now changed, different than before because of his experience of loving and losing. Would he approach this relationship differently? Would he cherish it in a different way now knowing what it is like to lose someone and how precious is it? Would he make the same choices about career and going away? Would he put himself in a position that his life would be at risk again and risk hurting those he loved if he himself was killed? (Pointing towards his ultimate decision to whether or not to join the Nazis after the Anschluss regardless to his political views) anyway at I may be rambling and this may not help at all! (Just my one cent - don't have two cents this morning!)
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Post by lemacd on Apr 21, 2014 23:52:31 GMT
No it's all good stuff. What I was trying to say and what you added so nicely to btw, is that the things he is going to have to say to her (and to himself) is that he loves M. Not that he loves again. Not that he found what he once had and lost. If he talks too much like that she might think he's in love with being in love more than being in love with her.
I don't think I'm explaining very well. He loves M because she is wonderful. Not because she helped him get over his grief. Sigh. Whatever. I thought what you said about how all of this affects the way he deals with the Anschluss was good food for thought.
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 22, 2014 0:25:22 GMT
I definitely love the idea that he loves her for who she is, not what she did. I also think it's entirely consistent for him to love A like a madman and then love M that way. That's who he is! I agree with what others have written about Elsa and how that relationship didn't challenge him. But if he DOES fall in love again he WOULD be just as intense, I think. I'm not really adding to what's already been said which is so beautiful!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 0:35:46 GMT
He loves M because she is wonderful. Not because she helped him get over his grief. Sigh. Absolutely!!!!!!!!! and by the end, she will know it and she will feel it and she will find her place in life (and live happily ever after... well, you know)
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Post by utility_singer on Apr 22, 2014 0:45:00 GMT
Wow, after what you've all said, I've got not much else to add. Amazing thoughts in this discussion.
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Post by lemacd on Apr 22, 2014 1:00:23 GMT
Then I read what mireille said about how Georg is now changed, different than before because of his experience of loving and losing. Would he approach this relationship differently? Would he cherish it in a different way now knowing what it is like to lose someone and how precious is it? like @augiesannie said, he would love with the same intensity because that is who he is and how he does things. we know he is passionate about his country, heck even not letting the children sing in public... so yeah, he's going to be passionate about the woman he loves. but i think you are on to something about there being a difference knowing that it could be taken away in a heartbeat. i imagine he doesn't take a moment with her for granted, makes sure to tell her that she is loved often, isn't distracted by what isn't important because his family is what counts. etc. insert hallmark card sentiment here.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 1:29:42 GMT
Yes! Definitely he would love with the same passion and intensity (swoon!) but I think you just said perfectly what I was trying to say before that he would not take one moment with her for granted. Love this discussion (and of course your story lemacd!)
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Post by mireille on Apr 22, 2014 6:59:30 GMT
Love this discussion (and of course your story lemacd!) Me too! We need more of these! I totally can see him swooning her over with his charm. M is already thouched by reading the letters to Agathe. I can imagine how she feels when he showes her his dedication towards her....*sigh* yes, changed man, lovely woman, different relationship!
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