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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Feb 5, 2014 6:26:28 GMT
Oh, goodness, I didn't see that at all. But I'll have to go back and watch it again (having just watched it ten minutes ago) and see if I'm convinced! Well, there's never a bad excuse to watch this film. Heck, if I had the time I'd be watching it every day.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 19, 2019 19:20:01 GMT
Max’s subtle looks add so much to this movie! I like that we see him look up to watch Georg sing TSOM. His amusement and Elsa’s shock/disapproval are perfect reactions to Maria requesting that Georg play guitar. My favorite are the looks during Edelweiss – Max noticing Georg looking at Maria and then turning to see Elsa noticing Georg looking at Maria. This says so much without any words at all! Oh, the dinner invitation. Max! He is very self-absorbed. He can’t know how desperately Elsa does not want Maria at the party or he wouldn’t have invited her, even to talk festival “business”. Elsa must not hold a grudge on this though because she seeks him out for a celebration drink after she scares Maria back to the abbey. Max again mention Maria here, so again, he can’t know how much she bothers Elsa. But he knows something is going on between Georg and Maria, right? I know he didn’t see the Laendler, but there have been enough clues for him to see how much influence she has over Georg. No other governess had his attention like this. Do you think Elsa ever confided in Max (they were very gossipy together) how much she wanted Maria out of the picture?
I’m confused why he thinks it’s funny that the children are making the ball game so hard on Elsa. I would think he would be wincing here realizing this was not going to work out as planned. Then Elsa looks to him as the children are kissing her cheek and his reaction is to raise his eyebrows (this was the starting point of this thread). In my mind he is thinking, wow this is awkward.
I know there are more looks when he’s with Zeller at the festival practice, when he’s busted by Brigitta with the festival program, with Zeller on the way to the festival, at the festival, but…to tell you the truth, I really like analyzing everything having to do with the love triangle of Georg, Elsa, and Maria better than everything after that.
How do you think Georg and Max met? The navy? I don’t think so. If you risked your life for your country, you would have political convictions regarding it’s well being. Are they related? I know the children call him “Uncle Max” but that doesn’t necessarily make him Georg’s brother or brother-in-law. He is close enough with Georg that he remained his friend even after Georg’s demeanor so drastically changed after his wife died. And close enough to feel comfortable pushing him multiple times to enter the children in the festival. And close enough to stand up in his wedding, even if it wasn’t to Elsa. How do you think he met Elsa? Gossiping about relationship details signals to me that they are at least somewhat close friends. Did they meet through Georg and then Max decided to play matchmaker to keep all the lovely money in the family?
This turned into a much longer post than I anticipated! Thoughts on Max?
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 14, 2019 23:23:29 GMT
Nice photo of Max/Richard Haydn and Julie as we don't have one here yet. [Click for huge enlargement] I am intrigued by the stage set behind, I think of the Abbey (How Do You Solve a Problem scene? or Graveyard scene?) - Julie is wearing her drab postulant garb. Max doesn't appear in this part of the film,so do you think he dropped by for a cuppa? Maybe it was filmed later in sequence, so he was hanging around, looking for something to do.
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Post by Supercali on Nov 18, 2019 18:14:42 GMT
I don't think he's in costume. Maybe he just came to have a cuppa with his fellow.
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 19, 2019 16:34:52 GMT
They aren't in costume, Julie is wearing a turtleneck sweater.
Anyway, while I think Max thought of Elsa as a friend, his primary allegiance is to Georg. Max sympathizes with Elsa, but is highly amused when she is out of her comfort zone---not in a malicious way, but in a "I know you better than you know yourself, sometimes" way.
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 20, 2019 0:10:06 GMT
So how long has Max known Elsa? If he knows her that well, has he known her since childhood?
You have to know someone very well to be allowed to laugh at them when they are uncomfortable...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 17, 2020 15:32:44 GMT
When does Max figure out what is going on? Does he see from the start that Georg is falling for Maria (like, before they do?), or is he completely shocked when Georg tells him that he broke it off with Elsa and is marrying Maria, or does he realize something is going on but doesn't think it should be taken seriously because....indiscretions...happen between masters and young women on the staff all the time in his social circle?
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 18, 2020 0:37:33 GMT
I do think that Max's expressions are those of a man who holds private suspicions about G and M, but sees himself as a sort of bystander, not a judge. Maybe his atttitude is "Que sera sera" (like his political views on the terrace).
The point suggested earlier that Max is trying to get Georg for Elsa is interesting, which may explain why he stands back in a neutral way when he sees Georg's interests are elsewhere. These 'raised eyebrow' expressions of his start appearing quite early on, and are evident during Edelweiss and later on.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 25, 2020 18:16:32 GMT
I was thinking about the scene where Zeller provokes Georg at the party. Max is in the background when it starts, but once Zeller starts in on Georg, he moves to stand right in the conversation. Is he preparing to play the role of peacemaker if those two start getting ugly? Is he there to back up Georg and throw Zeller out of the house if he needs to?
For as selfish as he was, Max had no problem being an accomplice in the final escape. Zeller knows he's in on it since he is pushing the car with them (why is Max with them? were they going to drop him off at the festival on their way out of the country?), and he is clearly involved in the escape at the auditorium. Though, as he pointed out, he didn't really have a choice in any of this if he wanted to Georg.
What do you think happened to Max? How did he escape the Nazis? They would be after him for his role in all of this for sure.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 27, 2020 23:54:12 GMT
There is a thread somewhere (?maybe in Max's section in Characters) where we talked about Max's outcome (some thought not good, as he is left at the Festival, surrounded).
He is a mercurial character, very variable but capable of real loyalty - something which tells me he has known Georg since childhood, and may even be related (eg a cousin etc), which would explain why, despite big differences in character, he would lay his life on the line for Georg.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 28, 2020 23:11:43 GMT
One of the threads about Max which I was thinking of is 'In a Nutshell', under Max in Characters. Will try and find the other, which explores his possible outcomes.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jun 15, 2020 17:25:23 GMT
So how long has Max known Elsa? If he knows her that well, has he known her since childhood? You have to know someone very well to be allowed to laugh at them when they are uncomfortable... I was thinking about this today. During the "tell me everything" scene, Elsa is very comfortable almost cuddling into Max and giggling as they talk. They have to have been friends for awhile. She wouldn't be so trusting of and affectionate with him otherwise. Friends since childhood is interesting theory. That would allow them to be close friends even though they are not at the same social standing now.
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Post by indigoblue on Jun 15, 2020 22:27:29 GMT
It's curious seeing her almost cuddle up to him whilst giggling, when she would like to be doing precisely that with Georg...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jun 16, 2020 13:59:41 GMT
Exactly. She seems almost more comfortable with Max than she does with Georg. I know she was touching Georg during the lake scene, but the whole thing just seemed more...I don't know...formal maybe? She asks Georg personal questions and gets answers, which is intimate in it's own way, but "tell Max every teensy weensy disgusting detail" seems like she could say anything to him. He is encouraging her to be as open as possible, which is never the case with Georg.
I am not saying that Elsa and Max are a better match romantically, but they do have an interesting friendship.
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Post by riana11 on Jun 16, 2020 15:22:22 GMT
It is almost like they are conspiring together to "catch" Georg as a husband for her. He wants them to marry just as much as she does. It is also telling that she doesn't have this kind of openness with Georg himself and we see they wouldn't make a good match.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Aug 20, 2020 16:27:23 GMT
So how long has Max known Elsa? If he knows her that well, has he known her since childhood? You have to know someone very well to be allowed to laugh at them when they are uncomfortable... Max finds humor in Elsa's discomfort during the ball game and in Georg's discomfort in being asked to play guitar. This does show a deep level of friendship for it to be tolerated. Has he know both of them since childhood? Have Georg and Elsa then know each other that long as well??
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 27, 2020 23:00:27 GMT
Georg and Elsa don't seem to me to know each other that well, beyond lots of banter and flirting.
Maybe Max has known both of them since childhood, and introduced them, say, a year ago? This would explain how he is so at ease with both of them, but they are not at ease with each other.
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Post by augiesannie on Sept 11, 2020 22:40:51 GMT
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 18, 2020 14:41:46 GMT
I never thought that he actually believed that she would hate him for this comment. It was more teasing since he knew she would actually LOVE to hear this. The she played along with the "Oh, how unromantic" line.
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 18, 2020 23:18:09 GMT
This all says to me that G&E both recognise that, on paper, they are a great match - and wow, they find each other very attractive.
And yet...that certain something which glues people together just isn't there, and they both know it. So maybe the invitation to the villa is an attempt to see if they can 'work something up' between themselves, except...we all know what happens next.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Dec 1, 2020 18:33:30 GMT
It is almost like they are conspiring together to "catch" Georg as a husband for her. He wants them to marry just as much as she does. It is also telling that she doesn't have this kind of openness with Georg himself and we see they wouldn't make a good match. I like watching the expressions on both Max and Elsa as they stare Georg down until he is in the house (and can't hear them) and then immediately launch into gossip about him during the "pealing madly" scene. It does seem like they are a team to catch Georg as her husband, and they aren't really that subtle about it. And yes, I agree, this is very telling on how superficial Georg and Elsa's relationship would be if they can't really talk to one another on a deeper level.
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 4, 2020 0:29:58 GMT
The only scenario I can imagine which explains this is where Max and Elsa are friends in Vienna, Max being a longtime friend of Georg, perhaps from childhood, but the two may not have seen each other that frequently in adulthood (this would explain why Georg doesn't seem to know Max's political views, and other things about Max annoy Georg). Living 250 miles apart may account for this.
Elsa, fed up with men only interested in her wealth, asks old friend Max if he knows any nice men who wouldn't be interested in her money; Max thinks about it and comes up with a date with Georg for her, during which they hit it off, and both can see they are the perfect match...on paper - you can see Georg suddenly having his eyes pop open after five long years alone.
When the relationship matures, Georg pushes his boat out ('scuse the pun) and asks Elsa to the villa, with Max in case it all gets too tricky (and to entertain the kids so G&E can have some personal time) but it means that Max and Elsa are in a conspiracy to catch Georg, hence the giggly gossip on the terrace. However, I think Max becomes only too aware that Georg is oddly distracted...
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Post by augiesannie on Dec 25, 2020 20:04:16 GMT
I never thought that he actually believed that she would hate him for this comment. It was more teasing since he knew she would actually LOVE to hear this. The she played along with the "Oh, how unromantic" line. Oh! SMH I am so stupid!!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jun 4, 2021 0:38:53 GMT
After the puppet show, when Max is telling everyone about his entry for the folk festival. 2 things:
1. Do you think he knew he needed to come up with some distraction because the G, E, & M were alone in the ball room too long so he thought things might be tense? He did a good job of diffusing the tension after Edelweiss for a similar reason...
2. I love how he swings his body around towards the children when he is asking who everyone thinks he has picked for his festival entry. The children would probably have no idea who to even guess (and it may not even be appropriate for them to make a guess in an adult conversation) but he makes a point to include them in the conversation. And puts his arm around Liesl when he's giving more detail. Yes, I know the answer is ultimately them, but still, I think it shows why they like him (why they were so excited when it was announced that he was coming). He treats them like actual people. And he's funny. He is easy to like.
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Post by itsdayandnight on Jun 4, 2021 6:23:16 GMT
After the puppet show, when Max is telling everyone about his entry for the folk festival. 2 things: 1. Do you think he knew he needed to come up with some distraction because the G, E, & M were alone in the ball room too long so he thought things might be tense? He did a good job of diffusing the tension after Edelweiss for a similar reason... 2. I love how he swings his body around towards the children when he is asking who everyone thinks he has picked for his festival entry. The children would probably have no idea who to even guess (and it may not even be appropriate for them to make a guess in an adult conversation) but he makes a point to include them in the conversation. And puts his arm around Liesl when he's giving more detail. Yes, I know the answer is ultimately them, but still, I think it shows why they like him (why they were so excited when it was announced that he was coming). He treats them like actual people. And he's funny. He is easy to like. Ohhh, I love the idea that he's announced it to create a distraction! It seems very Max to create some sort of barrier before, (forgive me) any of the three do anything that they would soon regret. Damage control. I also noticed how much more at ease G looked when Max started talking. He even almost looks grateful for the distraction. But despite his newfound ease, he still refuses to look at anyone else but Max. He can't even look at the children, and even moves far away from where M and E stand. Perhaps it was his way of saying "save me." (And Max does it so well until G looses all sense when M is handing him the guitar, where he just laughs at G's misfortune) Also, yes! Truly! We can really see that he loves the children as much as the children love him. He doesn't treat them as inferiors, but simply people he adores and cherishes -- that's what makes him so likable and (sorry, Georg), charming!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Jun 16, 2021 0:44:31 GMT
I think that Richard Haydn really makes this role. Do you ever stop and think what the movie would have been like if they had cast "this actor or that actor" instead (yuck, right?). He's just the perfect personality for this role, having done a lot of comedy and played some very eccentric roles - maybe a bit typecast, but it suits him so! (and I always giggle at points in the SOM when he says things as they take me back to his voice as the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland)
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Post by utility_singer on Jun 30, 2021 11:40:27 GMT
Here's my quick take: Max is Elsa's gay best friend (stereotype alert) He is seemingly a confirmed bachelor. He is involved in the arts. He is dishing with Elsa much the way a trusted girlfriend would. IMO, he became friendly with her while making his way into her social circle in Vienna---he likes money, and is always looking for people with it to finance his ideas ("I like rich people. I like the way they live. I like the way I live when I am with them")
He is also likely Jewish (the name 'Max' was stereotypically and old Jewish man's name). His comment to Georg about "What's going to happen's going to happen. Just make sure it doesn't happen to you." is very telling in his desire to stay alert and on guard. His friendship with Georg, since he seems to be a bit older, leads me to believe that it is a long-standing connection, perhaps originating between family members other than themselves, such as Georg's father). So, 'family' (Uncle Max) but not blood related.
In the movie, he is left surrounded by the Nazis. In the stage version, he is dragged off the stage, to an unknown fate. And Haydn is wonderful in the role.
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 1, 2021 22:49:10 GMT
I can see a convenient relationship develop between Max and Elsa when she finds herself a wealthy widow who (say) loves the Vienna Opera. Max could have made himself useful if he also loves both the opera and the musical connections he can make at evenings there, by being a willing and entertaining escort for Elsa or other maiden aunts, elderly widows etc. Under these conditions over several years, he could well become a very close confidant whom Elsa has come to trust more than any of her many suitors...including Georg!
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 4, 2021 19:00:40 GMT
I was thinking about the scene where Zeller provokes Georg at the party. Max is in the background when it starts, but once Zeller starts in on Georg, he moves to stand right in the conversation. Is he preparing to play the role of peacemaker if those two start getting ugly? Is he there to back up Georg and throw Zeller out of the house if he needs to? For as selfish as he was, Max had no problem being an accomplice in the final escape. Zeller knows he's in on it since he is pushing the car with them (why is Max with them? were they going to drop him off at the festival on their way out of the country?), and he is clearly involved in the escape at the auditorium. Though, as he pointed out, he didn't really have a choice in any of this if he wanted to Georg. What do you think happened to Max? How did he escape the Nazis? They would be after him for his role in all of this for sure. Speaking of Max, I just saw this older post, which I had missed, and it made me laugh - were they going to drop him off at the festival on their way out of the country?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 20, 2022 20:27:53 GMT
I was thinking today that Max did a pretty good job getting the children ready for the festival (I know, it was in his best interest, but still). I'm sure Maria was in charge of working herself and Georg into the act on the way to the festival, while Georg and Max hatched an escape plan. But before this, the children had to have practiced their songs (which had slight variation from what they learned with Maria) and new choreography. I wonder how early in the honeymoon he started the rehearsals. He made it seem like it was a last minute thing, but I don't think so.
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