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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 27, 2022 22:25:47 GMT
I was thinking about Max's quiet observations before Edelweiss today. We were talking a while back about our favorite moments and someone mentioned Max catching Georg checking out Maria when the children are scheming to get him to play guitar (this was you right, itsdayandnight? I lose track of these threads so easily..). Anyway, Max is absolutely watching Georg watch Maria. Then, once Maria comes over with the guitar and "the vote is unanimous", Max is totally focused on Georg again and doesn't stop looking at him until his back is turned as he walks away. When do you think Max figured it out that something was going on between G&M? During this scene? During The Apology? Sometime that we don't see?
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 29, 2022 13:08:02 GMT
That is a great question to ponder, reverendcaptain, and also what did he think about it? (I’m sure I can find earlier discussions on this question somewhere). Because it does mean not keeping all that lovely money in the family if G chooses Maria over Elsa. Or does Max think G’s interest in Maria is dishonorable? I guess not.
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 31, 2022 0:29:57 GMT
I've just finished posting on another thread about who (if anyone) heard G&M talking during The Apology! Methinks Max could hear, because he was leaning up against the wall, closer to the door than Elsa, so I think this is when he gets an inkling of an'understanding' between G&M.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Feb 23, 2022 1:05:15 GMT
I've just finished posting on another thread about who (if anyone) heard G&M talking during The Apology! Methinks Max could hear, because he was leaning up against the wall, closer to the door than Elsa, so I think this is when he gets an inkling of an'understanding' between G&M. I've always been intrigued by Max's posture when Georg enters the room. He's leaned up against the wall, as you have noted, looking rather conspiratorial (like, these kids can sing? WTH?). Then Georg comes in and his expression changes little. I think this says a lot. Elsa, rightly so, looks a bit intrigued? confused? by Georg's singing, but Max is poker face. All he does is lift his head when Georg joins in. (Incidentally, it's the same lift-of-the-head he "has on" when Maria tries to convince Georg to sing Edelweiss later on in the movie...it's so on purpose, but what is going on in his head???) Even Maria when she comes along later doesn't change her expression that much - it's her eyes that say "amaze-balls!" to me.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 24, 2022 0:19:22 GMT
I suppose one explanation as to why Max's expression doesn't change much is because if he has known Georg for a long time, then he will already know that he is musically talented. So when Georg sings, or plays the guitar in Edelweiss, then Max has seen it all before. Maybe he approves the idea that Georg should be using his musical talents after all this time...although perhaps he is also wondering why this has come about, and that it was probably not of Elsa's doing.
Then whose doing was it?!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 24, 2022 22:16:26 GMT
Max seems like a "let's see how this plays out" kind of guy to me in general. I doesn't surprise me that he doesn't have a big reaction to Georg singing TSOM or Edelweiss because I think he is practiced in watching people to gather information. This could be about a new singing group, or society gossip, or politics, or the goings on in his best friend's house. The poker face, along with a sense of humor when required, allows him to be on everyone's side in every scenario. I bet he knows much more than he lets on.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 24, 2022 23:41:59 GMT
Yes, that seems to fit. Do you think he is similar with his political views ie, he will slide along however it suits him to either to benefit himself, or to keep him out of trouble? It correlates with his comment to Georg on the terrace about "What's going to happen is going to happen. Just make sure it doesn't happen to you." and "You know I have no political convictions. Can I help it if other people do?"
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 28, 2022 21:41:57 GMT
Yes, that seems to fit. Do you think he is similar with his political views ie, he will slide along however it suits him to either to benefit himself, or to keep him out of trouble? It correlates with his comment to Georg on the terrace about "What's going to happen is going to happen. Just make sure it doesn't happen to you." and "You know I have no political convictions. Can I help it if other people do?" Yes, these 2 quotes, plus "The thing to do is to get along with everybody." He absolutely is trying to stay out of taking sides on politics because he doesn't want to be on anyone's bad side. Though, this all goes out the window once Georg needs his help.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 28, 2022 23:41:00 GMT
We had a fascinating discussion somewhere here some years ago about how we suspected Max is both Jewish and gay; two very good reasons for him to keep his head well below the parapet.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 1, 2022 0:24:41 GMT
We had a fascinating discussion somewhere here some years ago about how we suspected Max is both Jewish and gay; two very good reasons for him to keep his head well below the parapet. I think this is the thread you are referring to. sound-of-music-fics.freeforums.net/thread/603/nutshell
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Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 5, 2022 2:44:39 GMT
I suppose one explanation as to why Max's expression doesn't change much is because if he has known Georg for a long time, then he will already know that he is musically talented. So when Georg sings, or plays the guitar in Edelweiss, then Max has seen it all before. Maybe he approves the idea that Georg should be using his musical talents after all this time...although perhaps he is also wondering why this has come about, and that it was probably not of Elsa's doing. Then whose doing was it?! ah - this are helpful insights...I am this point in my story....trying to hash out a conversation between Max and Elsa about what went on "after the argument". I am still quite certain Elsa didn't know Georg could sing and I am also thinking that Georg did not speak of the children too much in her company, so these developments would be strange to her. I would think she is going to corner Max and ask him what he thinks of it all. Maria is a nobody with no 'breeding' and no class at this point, so Elsa is not feeling remotely threatened...I think LOL This is where I feel I have been swimming in circles the past few days...but this will definitely help push me in one direction! Thank you
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 6, 2022 0:29:58 GMT
I suppose I have the feeling that Max and Georg are related - perhaps cousins - so they would have spent time together as children and teenagers (this explains their uneasy tolerance of each other even though they are very different people). Given this idea, they may well have played music together when younger, hence Max would be familiar with the singing captain.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 8, 2022 0:18:22 GMT
I've also always thought they must be family -- affection, tolerance, history - it doesn't seem like they have a relaitonship borne out of shared values or experiences.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 7, 2022 19:11:05 GMT
Georg must really be certain that Max isn't interested in Elsa. When he comes back out on the terrace (before he yells at Rolf), Elsa and Max are awfully close and are giggling together. They would appear to a casual observer to be involved. Though Georg doesn't hardly seem to notice them. Contrast that to Elsa's reaction at seeing Georg dancing with Maria at the party, which is complete shock and betrayal. Attachments:
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 12, 2022 0:30:13 GMT
Do you think then that both Georg and Elsa know Max is gay? That would explain why they are QUITE so entwined, as above, AND why Georg doesn't turn a hair, even though he is in quite a scratchy mood, judging by his expression.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 17, 2022 20:12:31 GMT
Hard to say. These things weren't so openly discussed back then. Though, it seems like they both must know, doesn't it? If not, Elsa would be trying to set him up with someone, and Georg would be upset that he appears to be hitting on both Elsa and Maria at various points in the movie.
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 19, 2022 21:19:43 GMT
It's quite a dilemma to decide, because being a captain in the navy, Georg would have been in charge of ensuring gay men were disallowed from the military.
But, as you say, in any other circumstances, a man and a woman behaving as in the screencap above would have been in a sexual relationship, yet Georg isn't at all phased.
Maybe Georg is relieved that Max is providing a distraction for Elsa because he is already himself distracted by Maria?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 28, 2022 22:10:36 GMT
Maybe both Georg and Elsa know even though it isn't something that was ever formally said? Meaning it is obvious to them, but they don't ask him about it or talk about it with him or others. Then it would make sense that Georg is not threatened by Max's attention to Elsa, in fact he kind of encourages it, knowing that Max is a safe companion for her. It works out from Elsa's point of view too. She has a friend to gossip with who Georg will never be jealous of.
Does Maria know?
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 2, 2022 22:31:14 GMT
I suspect not because she and Max do not really interact until the Edelweiss scene (it's possible they have done previously, but we are not shown that in the film). At that point, Maria is all absorbed by Georg, and it is Max who has his eyes wide open at their behaviour. The next time M and M relate to each other is when Max requests that Maria stays to dinner, then she leaves for the Abbey.
I suspect Maria is rather overawed by the sophisticated Viennese couple, and too bewitched by Georg to pay attention to Max.
Also - is she really attuned to such things?
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 1, 2023 0:14:26 GMT
I suspect not because she and Max do not really interact until the Edelweiss scene (it's possible they have done previously, but we are not shown that in the film). At that point, Maria is all absorbed by Georg, and it is Max who has his eyes wide open at their behaviour. The next time M and M relate to each other is when Max requests that Maria stays to dinner, then she leaves for the Abbey. I suspect Maria is rather overawed by the sophisticated Viennese couple, and too bewitched by Georg to pay attention to Max. Also - is she really attuned to such things? yeah, I'm not really sure it's top of mind for Maria ....
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 19, 2023 0:16:36 GMT
Do you think Georg and Max ever had a serious discussion about Maria before the engagement was announced? Did Georg ever confide in Max that he was thinking too much about the governess? Or did Max ever bring it up to Georg that he was paying too much attention to the governess with his girlfriend in the house?
I'm just wondering if Georg had anyone to talk to during this whole confusing debacle.
Similarly, do you think Max ever told Georg that he was being too harsh with his children during the pre-Maria days? He seems like the only one who comfortably speaks to Georg as an equal. He might be the only one who could get away with bringing this up (before Maria). Or maybe he thinks this isn't his business?
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 19, 2023 17:28:45 GMT
Do you think Georg and Max ever had a serious discussion about Maria before the engagement was announced? Did Georg ever confide in Max that he was thinking too much about the governess? Or did Max ever bring it up to Georg that he was paying too much attention to the governess with his girlfriend in the house? I'm just wondering if Georg had anyone to talk to during this whole confusing debacle. Similarly, do you think Max ever told Georg that he was being too harsh with his children during the pre-Maria days? He seems like the only one who comfortably speaks to Georg as an equal. He might be the only one who could get away with bringing this up (before Maria). Or maybe he thinks this isn't his business? I really love this question, because honestly the way I see Max, he isn't really the kind of person to get all confidey about children, love affairs, etc (I do agree that he seems to be the only person who could get away with it). I see him as pretty self interested. But I guess Max COULD bring up matters that might affect his well being, e.g., don't mess up a good thing with Elsa because of a passing fancy for the governess. But perhaps I am being too harsh. Obviously the children are very fond of him so he must have done something good (see what I did there?)
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 20, 2023 15:07:19 GMT
Yes, the children are all excited at the news that Uncle Max is visiting. Even Marta and Gretl, which says to me that he has visited in the recent past or they wouldn't remember him.
Being a close enough friend to be invited to the villa when most others were shut out, I would like to think that he would at least have brought it up to Georg that he was acting like a tyrant (not that he would have said it that way). Though maybe the whistles and orders were kept to a minimum with a guest in the house? Which would be another reason the children were excited about the prospect of his visit?
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 22, 2023 23:46:41 GMT
Max, I'm sure, has seen it all but chooses to keep mum. Maybe because he wants to stay on the 'winning side' (whichever that is).
Having said that, I can't help thinking that over a glass of whisky late at night, Max must at least have alluded to the goings on. But whether Georg acknowledged anything is another matter. Men were/are very cagey sometimes, you know...
Part of this would be because Austria was/IS a very strict Catholic country; I learned recently that a young relative of mine is moving to work in Vienna soon, but his girlfriend (with whom he has lived for 3 years) cannot live with him there as they are unmarried. So imagine what the chitchat would have been like regarding G&M in 1938 if that had got out!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 28, 2023 0:03:14 GMT
Part of this would be because Austria was/IS a very strict Catholic country; I learned recently that a young relative of mine is moving to work in Vienna soon, but his girlfriend (with whom he has lived for 3 years) cannot live with him there as they are unmarried. So imagine what the chitchat would have been like regarding G&M in 1938 if that had got out! Really? Is this just because he feels they will be stigmatized for being sinners if they remain living together? Or is there some sort of formal regulation in place?
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 28, 2023 21:29:49 GMT
There is formal regulation in place.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 27, 2024 0:58:40 GMT
Watch Max’s face when Elsa says “Well, if it’s a matter of influence, maybe the one he’ll have to be talking to is me.” One would think he wouldn’t have a reaction until after she finishes her statement and processes, but his concerned expression shows up way before then, closer to when she says “he’ll”. What does he think has happened? I think he knew Elsa had words with Maria. Does he know that she’s gone?
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 12, 2024 0:31:59 GMT
Yes, it's interesting watching Elsa and Max in the hall after Maria has gone upstairs, ostensibly to change. Georg is talking to various maiden aunts, whilst Max gazes up the stairs after Maria. Meanwhile, Elsa is left isolated, and clearly has inner turmoil about the events she has just seen unfolding, then decides to follow Maria upstairs - all observed by Max as she walks past him.
So he must know Elsa is going to have words with Maria upstairs, and that she is in a bad mood; he can guess the tone of the encounter. Elsa's comments in the ballroom merely confirm that Elsa has come out on top.
But did Max know anything about the Laendler?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 14, 2024 20:50:41 GMT
In all of the times I have seen this movie, I have never noticed Max noticing Elsa follow Maria up! I have seen Elsa slinking away, but not that Max was right behind her gazing longingly after the person who was going to hand him the winning entry in the festival. Wow. Did he say anything to Georg? Or just mind his own business and see what happens? Probably mind his own business. He doesn't want to get involved in this love triangle.
He doesn't know about the Laendler, though even just watching what happened during Edelweiss had to let him know where everyone stood here. I'm still torn as to if he knows Maria is gone when Elsa comes back to the party, or if he just thinks she's going to stay away from Georg from now on. I wonder if he would do anything differently if he was confident about one scenario or the other. For example, would he have chased down Maria (for selfish reasons) if he thought she was leaving forever?
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Post by goldenbeauty on Feb 15, 2024 5:31:47 GMT
I don't think he said anything if he put the pieces together. Because I feel like if he did bring it up to Georg it would be something he might question Elsa about or at least not be so curious as to why Maria left.
Max is such an interesting character to me. As non-comital and apolitical as he claims to be... I don't think that's exactly true.
When Herr Zeller and another one of his men approach Max after the Anschluss, he is reluctant to do the Hitler salute. He really only does it because Herr Zeller makes it a point to point out his position in Austria now to where he really has no choice, and he says it reluctantly both times. The second time he seems put off by it. I just think his position is to keep his head low, and not get in any trouble. Though "what's going to happen is going to happen, just make sure it doesn't happen to you" and "the Anschluss happened peacefully we should at least be grateful about that." Are 2 of the craziest lines in the entire movie.
He really did pull through at the end though, and I like to think he got away and perhaps met up with the family somehow down the line. To think otherwise is far too depressing.
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