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Post by indigoblue on Mar 12, 2014 0:36:00 GMT
Seeing the valedictory tribute to Eleanor Parker at the Oscars got me thinking about her role in TSOM, and her personal character. My feeling is that, through a combination of these, she has contributed hugely to the longevity of TSOM because it is precisely because she is so alluring (and ostensibly a very suitable match for the Captain), that we are drawn into the triangle that is the crux of the film, and the 'will-they-won't they' suspense continues far longer than in most films. Perhaps I ought to explain that it annoys me when you begin to watch a film, and you know early on precisely who is going to be the Goodie (usually good-looking, involved in some noble cause, uncomplicated sort of character) and the Baddie (always unattractive to look at, frequent impediment/disability, often has disproportionate amount of money/power etc). At this point I switch off, as I know the rough outline of the story - the Goodie will triumph in some way over the Baddie (surprisingly consistently). I have also seen TSOM on stage twice and read the play, and in both stageshows the Baroness was played as a much less attractive character, and in the play she is more ambitious (appearing to be a Baddie early on). I know it would have been Robert Wise's (and perhaps Ernest Lehman's) decision to make her a much more sympathetic character, but I also think Eleanor Parker just clinched it so well that she knocks your socks off, so you get drawn in to her relationship with G and the love triangle, not knowing the outcome till well into the film. So no 'Goodie/Baddie' problem early on here - this is romantic suspense of the first order! Cut to TSOM film, and although we have been introduced to Maria, we can see she has faults, and she isn't an obvious partner for el Capitan due to her social inferiority and the fact that he is such a catch. Enter the Baroness and she is a social equal to him and so drop-dead gorgeous that I for one, immediately put them together as a couple. So no Baddie - yet. So the Captain and Maria are going at it like hammer and tongs while the Baroness is quietly ordering her wedding dress...except we become distracted and fascinated by this combative relationship which seems to have something else going on (but what?- on the stairs when Georg apologises we see contrition, humility, forgiveness; what does it all mean?) Meanwhile, the Baroness doesn't want to lose her grip on the Captain (I suppose she plays the Goodie for quite a long time, until it gradually occurs to me she may be, in fact, a Baddie...but we are not sure). Just when we begin to think aha! she's a Baddie, Maria dashes out of the film, back to the Abbey, and horror! G and Elsa are engaged...and we have to have a rethink; maybe Elsa is a Goodie after all? May be she will be a good mother to the kids? Because we aren't sure what is going on there is a suspense right up until the moment he kisses Maria, and we finally know Elsa is not only a Baddie, but she has said Auf Wiedersehn. To my mind, this tight, ever-nuancing triangle is intensely engaging, and Eleanor Parker's utter skill and charm serve to intensify it, and I am sure, have contributed in part to the film's continuing fascination for so many people. 
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 12, 2014 0:42:47 GMT
PS Can you tell I am a member of the Baroness Fan Club?!
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 12, 2014 1:02:40 GMT
Genius. Both your post, and her portrayal of Elsa.
The more we discuss this film, the more apparent it is to me that the while the film in its entirely is timeless and very nearly flawless, so is each of the individual elements.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 12, 2014 1:25:00 GMT
Omigosh, @indigoblue. Oh, my, my. What a brilliant post. The beautiful writing is a fitting tribute to a brilliant film and a wonderful actress. Thank you SO much for writing this for us!
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Post by lemacd on Mar 12, 2014 1:31:19 GMT
i think another thing that contributed to our sympathetic feelings for elsa is that she has really, really good lines... "why didn't you tell me to bring along my harmonica?" and "you didn't think you'd find a friend at the party" (ooooh snap) and snappy witty comebacks "looked rather warm to me." and "if you have any trouble, i'll be glad to help you." and maybe even "haven't you heard of a little thing called boarding school?" i always felt bad for her, too, during that dreadful game she tried to play with the children who were nasty about it... like they were punishing her for not being maria. not her fault. punish dear old dad.
anyway... i agree. great post. when is our next BFC meeting? i'll bring the strudel.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 12, 2014 2:00:57 GMT
that strudel is much too delicious for my figure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2014 2:11:47 GMT
make it an uneven three
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Post by lemacd on Mar 12, 2014 2:45:57 GMT
wait... are we still playing racy lines?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 12, 2014 3:10:21 GMT
I'm sorry lemacd, I've corrupted you with our discussion from earlier today. All lines are now racy!!! OK, back on topic. I love the Baroness too!! |
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 12, 2014 8:53:54 GMT
Oh, good - maybe that means applications for the BFC will be on the up (recently dwindling perilously).
I think I realised what a pivotal role Eleanor Parker plays in the film when I first saw the stage play some time ago - a local amateur-dramatic production. The baroness was played by a rather stout lady with a slightly bombastic tone, so much so that in no way was she anything like a partner for the Captain; I spent the whole time willing him to link up with Maria, who was played by a much younger, sweet girl, and as such the production lacked the ability to engage me.
The next production I saw was highly professional London show a couple of years ago, and although the Baroness had an appealing personality, the lines of the play belied an ambitious streak which immediately marked her out as a Baddie, so no takers here, as Maria was again the epitome of kind femininity (Carrie Fisher) -quite vulnerable too, which added to her appeal in the marriage department.
Now back to Eleanor Parker and the witty, appealing character she plays (she's actually quite seductive in a subtle way), and you see the talent which means she is quite a match for Maria, ending in the prolonged tussle between them. How many other plays/films have such a prolonged battle of the emotions?
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 12, 2014 10:16:27 GMT
yes, when I read your post last night, I was going to say that Laura B's portrayal in the US telecast (which you may not have seen, but you may get a glimpse of it on youtube with "no way to stop it" and "how can love survive", was pretty sympathetic, all things considered, but the character still wasn't really super appealing.
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 12, 2014 10:45:50 GMT
In defense of the stage production, Elsa is not supposed to be sympathetic. We are supposed to be rooting for Maria. When Wise and Lehmann made the decision to cut her songs with Max, and reduce the political conflict between Elsa/Georg, the romance angle *had* to be enhanced. That's partly why we need the scene between the two of them by the lake. That serves to bolster the relationship, and elevates them both to more than cardboard caricatures.
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Post by mireille on Mar 14, 2014 19:53:39 GMT
Nice post @indigioblue.
I’ve never been a huge fan of Elsa. You gave me some insight on the ‘badguy’- ‘goodguy’ stereo type. And true they aren’t really portrait as one or the other. It makes me look different at Elsa. Too me she also seems a bit insecure.
Why would Max ask her if he, hears wedding bells for them, when she would be sure of herself. Of course I think it’s human to feel insecure. But when we first see her she is this elegant and strong woman. Later on we see her vulnerabilities, especially around the children and of course with M&G
Oh this needs some watching of the DVD.
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 15, 2014 1:37:39 GMT
I think she knows from the start that while Georg may be looking to marry again, she may not be the one. Hence her comment to Max, "pealing madly, but not necessarily for me".
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Post by mireille on Apr 8, 2014 16:33:01 GMT
Okay I had to share my thought about a scene I was writing last night. I truly laughed out loud at myself.
G&E are having a conversation and G is standing behind E. I wanted him to kiss her hair.....not a good plan!!! Haha yes he would have kissed some cotton candy. It was a funny moment.
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 15, 2014 20:55:03 GMT
In defense of the stage production, Elsa is not supposed to be sympathetic. We are supposed to be rooting for Maria. When Wise and Lehmann made the decision to cut her songs with Max, and reduce the political conflict between Elsa/Georg, the romance angle *had* to be enhanced. That's partly why we need the scene between the two of them by the lake. That serves to bolster the relationship, and elevates them both to more than cardboard caricatures. yes, and/but I think even in the play, I think you could have a tug of sympathy for her when she departs. |
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 15, 2014 20:55:13 GMT
Okay I had to share my thought about a scene I was writing last night. I truly laughed out loud at myself. G&E are having a conversation and G is standing behind E. I wanted him to kiss her hair.....not a good plan!!! Haha yes he would have kissed some cotton candy. It was a funny moment. you are too funny! |
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Post by mireille on Apr 15, 2014 21:42:16 GMT
Glad you think I'm funny! What is life without fun?  And I'm truly having fun here and because of you all, I also have lot's of fun in my writing. |
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 1, 2018 0:38:00 GMT
Talking about having fun, I remember we discussed a screencap some time back, where we were wondering exactly what Georg was doing back there:  Well, from what I can see in this photo, it seems Elsa got in there first before Georg...  I just love that sweet look on her face as she is pinching Georg's bum (Goosing, do you call it?!) I'm surprised they managed to keep straight faces... |
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Post by clarinetjamie on Mar 1, 2018 14:18:34 GMT
Lol....... we always find the funniest things to point out. There has to be an idea for a fanfic in this somewhere.
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Post by lemacd on Mar 2, 2018 1:59:10 GMT
Lol....... we always find the funniest things to point out. There has to be an idea for a fanfic in this somewhere. oooh like Georg and Elsa have a little game they play... maybe that is why he carried around the riding crop, to keep her hands away from his backside. |
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 6, 2018 23:53:31 GMT
This exact scene is shown being filmed in Revcap's great posting 'CP on set of TSOM' under 'Stuff on CP'.
They do seem to have a Little Thing Going On there...maybe this was it?!
Not easy in front of all those people...
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Post by clarinetjamie on Mar 17, 2018 20:44:36 GMT
Perhaps, but she also had a pretty well known thing for one of the camera guys.
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Post by leonie on Jul 8, 2018 5:34:03 GMT
Elonor parker was so brilliant and perfect for the role of elsa. Im more of a fan of the baroness than maria.
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Post by lemacd on Jul 10, 2018 2:42:26 GMT
Elonor parker was so brilliant and perfect for the role of elsa. Im more of a fan of the baroness than maria. whoa. that is one bold statement. Interesting. I am still team Maria but if there is justice in the world, Elsa found someone better (suited) than Georg. |
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jul 10, 2018 7:03:50 GMT
I'm hoping you mean better suited for her. Because no one looks better IN a suit than our Captain. Right?
I also hope Elsa found somebody
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Post by Supercali on Jul 11, 2018 3:19:28 GMT
Captain Von Trapp was one of my Prince Charmings at my early age (Well, he still kinda is, in a way...) . I used to dream of being his lady but never think that I could handle his seven children even though I was fascinated by him. Now when I look back, I realize that actually I was in Elsa's shoes. I am still with Maria but definitely have a deeper empathy for Elsa.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 12, 2019 0:46:20 GMT
  For those of you who are members of the Baroness Fan Club - our ever-alluring lady... I was thinking about Elsa's character, and it occurred to me that part of the reason she is so mesmerising in TSOM is because Eleanor Parker reveals a vulnerability and fragility underneath that ambitious exterior. In which scenes do you think she gives us a glimpse of this? |
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Post by Supercali on Mar 12, 2019 5:22:21 GMT
"I have the finest couturier in Vienna and a glittering circle of friends. I do give some rather gay parties. But take all that away, and you have just wealthy, unattached little me...searching, just like you."
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 25, 2019 23:42:30 GMT
Yes, and the Bells Pealing Madly scene reveals a 'little girl' side of her very different from that which we see in the car arriving from Vienna.
Thinking about this vulnerability, is it only when characters reveal their inner feelings that we warm to them? Think of Georg in the Apology scene, Elsa on the balcony and Maria sad outside the gazebo before her handsome prince arrives...
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And I'm truly having fun here and because of you all, I also have lot's of fun in my writing. 
