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Post by indigoblue on Jan 19, 2015 23:49:53 GMT
"When your husband died, he left you with a terrible fortune..."
So what was Baron Schraeder like, and what was his relationship with his baroness like? How did he make his money - self-made man or born to a life of luxury? Who 'wore the trousers' in that relationship? - Elsa is quite a strong character, so who called the tune?
What did he die of - natural or otherwise? (I can see some stories brewing here!) If he was the same age as Elsa he wasn't very old when he died, so was he much older, and did she marry him for love or otherwise?
I have often wondered about this, so your thoughts, please -
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Post by cass on Jan 20, 2015 0:42:16 GMT
I really like Elsa, and find her to be an incredibly balanced and rich character, no thanks to Eleanor Parker's brilliance, so in my head I've kind of always believed that her marriage looked like one made for position and wealth on the outside, but in actuality, behind closed doors, she loved her husband very much, and that he loved her. Now that you ask, his fortune being self-made is something that I find jives best with the dynamic that exists in my head -- she's the one that takes that money and turns it into the glitz and glamour that we see, effortlessly and seamlessly. I suppose one could say he's the nuts and bolts part to that unit, and she's the flights of fancy, but they're ultimately on fairly equal footing together.
In all technicality, there is probably some old money floating around since the family name clearly has a noble title attached, but as anyone who even spares a glance at English nobility will know, that doesn't by any means guarantee a thing in terms of wealth, and the early to mid 20th century wasn't the kindest time for those of the noble class anywhere. So I like to think Baron Schraeder must have been shrewd and innovative with the money he did have, and used it to garner even more, affording Elsa her status even after he's gone.
It also rides along well with the fact that she doesn't seem all to bothered that Georg's wealth exists technically because it came from the Whiteheads. She has enough that she need not worry about that, but it's also something she brushes away easily, as though she knows there's so much more than merely what Max is trying to joke off.
He was almost certainly older than her, to my mind -- perhaps a similar age gap to Georg and Maria, which lends itself to not only her defending her relationship with Georg when she saw it was jeopardized (having someone her age to grow old with that she cared for), but also to her stepping aside as graciously as she does when she knows the battle is lost (knowing the love isn't impossible and is wonderful when true). He could have died from any number of things, but I'd probably go with something like lung or liver cancer, what with all the smoking and drinking, though it's entirely possible he died in the same scarlet fever epidemic that killed Agathe. Elsa and Georg seem to be on a startlingly similar path, at similar points in their respective journies, she just handles it far differently (though not too far... as he went to her salons and parties!).
I've always thought it sad when she says, "I need someone who needs me desperately. Or at least needs my money desperately." To my mind, her saying that tells me that not only has she loved before, but her husband was the only one that could see her beyond their wealth for who she is as a person (aside from Georg), and she doesn't think she'll be so lucky to find that a second time. And yet, in spite of that... she encourages Georg to go after his second chance.
Basically, I've got this whole history with her and the mister cooked up same as I do with Max and Georg's friendship, it's ever only a matter of doing anything with it.
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Post by lemacd on Jan 20, 2015 2:17:36 GMT
According to my Elsa story (the oft mentioned, yet to be written Elsa story) he is old money. He is older. I'm with cass and think Elsa loved him. But the whole "no children" thing made him a bit cold to her (jerk...). He died, left her everything, including some real trust issues when it comes to love. The Georg situation didn't help. I don't think the baron was mean or cruel. I think his purpose to bother marrying a young wife was for an heir. I blame infertility on him. I think Elsa's lack of maternal nature is a front too. Like an onion, our Elsa. I could go on. But you asked about him. If I think of more, I'll post again. Oh! Cause of death: natural causes |
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Post by cass on Jan 20, 2015 4:01:37 GMT
Hah, yeah, I tried to keep it contained to him, too, lemacd, but that's the funny thing about building OCs to fill the gaps... they grow up around the characters that are canon and what we know and/or assume of what's there. It's almost impossible to discuss him without using her to help explain. I agree that the lack of maternal nature is more a front on her part, and I've always thought she might be secretly sad about it and is fiercely pretending that she'd be hopeless with children. I think I've mentioned this briefly, but I did shelve an Elsa-centric project that I wrote years ago that I seem to remember covering a vast majority of all of these aspects... I'll have to take a look at it. |
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 21, 2015 0:12:57 GMT
Intriguing...some thoughts have flown through my mind:
Elsa may be a baroness in her own right, or may have been created one for her own merits. I'm not sure what title, if any, her husband would get in that situation, but Baron Schraeder will do for now! If so, I wonder what her merits might have been?(Chairwoman of multiple charities, etc?) Maybe she is a highly successful businesswoman, as I believe she is in the play, and made her own money and acquired her own title? Similarly, he may have been conveyed the title because of his success.
The fact that she says "I need someone who needs me desperately, etc,", may be because her husband needed her desperately, and she liked it that way(ie.it may have been a lop-sided relationship). So maybe the reason she relinquishes the von Trapp connection so easily is because she knows Georg is not going to fill that role for her, and Maria gives her an easy way out.
Elsa may actually have had children, it's just they aren't mentioned; I assume if there are that they survived boarding school! The reason she may not be interested in the von Trapp kids is because she is 'beyond that phase', and wants a life alone with Georg.
I have an image in my mind of the Wicked Schraeder Witch giving her husband a poisoned apple to eat so she can inherit all his money...now THAT would put a different slant on TSOM!
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Post by utility_singer on Jan 21, 2015 2:38:47 GMT
Elsa may have been a trophy wife for a much older man with children close to her in age. Perhaps she is sour on children because when her husband died and left HER the terrible fortune, they objected to her being left everything. This would explain why she wanted Georg's children out of their hair.
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Post by lemacd on Jan 21, 2015 5:20:23 GMT
Love this. We all see her so differently.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2015 6:34:30 GMT
I have so many thoughts on this tppic (so excited) but it will have to wait until I can get on my computer. iPhone screens are tiny for typing lots!
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 22, 2015 0:04:51 GMT
Elsa may have been a trophy wife for a much older man with children close to her in age. Perhaps she is sour on children because when her husband died and left HER the terrible fortune, they objected to her being left everything. This would explain why she wanted Georg's children out of their hair. I like this idea, because it seems perfectly possible (especially if she was the sort who is quite demanding...turning it around by saying she wants someone who 'needs me', ie thriving on an intense relationship). In this situation, she could well have alienated her husbands' children if they felt pushed out of the nest, and it seems to fit with some of what we know about her.
On the other hand, I agree with Cass when she says she feels Elsa is well-balanced and rich in character. I am always struck by how well-behaved she actually is, having found herself in an excruciating situation; others could have ended up having tantrums/being catty/becoming a sourpuss, but all through I feel she is wonderfully poised and, even in Maria's bedroom, only tells the truth (even if it suits her ends by banishing Maria to the Abbey). So actually I will settle for the Happily Married to a Successful Man scenario, more of the New Money type than old, I think (too fashionable and a little too ambitious for Old Money!).
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 22, 2015 2:36:00 GMT
Elsa may have been a trophy wife for a much older man with children close to her in age. Perhaps she is sour on children because when her husband died and left HER the terrible fortune, they objected to her being left everything. This would explain why she wanted Georg's children out of their hair. This is fiendishly clever. (See what I did there?) |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 11:25:10 GMT
I've been promising to get back to this thread as it's really interesting. Whoever said above (was it Cass?) that it's hard to describe the baron without using the baroness.
I know I'm probably going to be re-hashing other people's ideas in different forms or another as surprisingly, or not so surprisingly, many of us tend to think the same way on things.
But this is how I see The Baron and Baroness Schraeder. (and I love thinking about this and I'll probably use much of this in my Georg story, when I eventually write it)
Let's start with her: Only child, grew up in a wealthy family. Spoilt. Private tutors for her early age, an elite finishing school for young ladies later on. Was 'quite a catch' and had some sort of debut party. Many suitors but there was always an expectation from her parents, social circle etc. to marry well. She had a fling with a young handsome thing, but her parents disapproved of him (breaking her heart in the process) in favour of an older guy - possibly some sort of friend or associate of her parents.
Him: Older than Elsa, perhaps 15 years? Eldest son out of three children (so got the title), two younger sisters. Very social, handsome, a bit of a ladies man, always had a girl on his arm, but nothing ever serious. Had a number of successful business ventures, lots of contacts around society so along with his family fortune, money just rolled in. Introduced to elsa by her parents, instant attraction due to her beauty, and liked the idea of marrying her as she'd be the perfect social wife, gorgeous, charming, perfect hostess etc.
Them together: There IS an attraction between them - handsome man, gorgeous woman... but Elsa's heart had been broken when she was told there was no further in the handsome young guy, so she doesn't really love the Baron at all. She agrees to the marriage as she can see all the benefits of marrying someone like the Baron - title, money, social status, etc. They have a good friendship, and even a good time in bed but it isn't really true love for either of them. After a while, he misses the freedom of having all his girls around him, and Elsa agrees to turn a blind eye to all of his affairs. She has a fling or two of her own and they have a mutual understanding of "that's the way it is" in their marriage. No talk ever of divorce. But despite all the affairs, the Baron finds that he 'needs' Elsa by his side, she becomes his confidant, his rock though thick and thin. They end up having quite a strong marriage in the end, despite not being 'in love' with each other.
RE: children. Obviously with a title, the Baron wants children to pass the estate onto to. Early on in their marriage, Elsa have several miscarriages until it's clear that she's never going to carry a child to term. She's naturally very upset by this but after a while, she accepts her lot in life and throws herself into her social position. Then as she grows older, the idea of ever having children around horrifies her, as it would upset her comfortable lifestyle.
His death: I imagine a quick illness and death and due to no heir, Elsa is left the huge fortune.
Elsa is alone for several years before she meets Georg (so he's been dead maybe 5 years when the movie is set). Despite having been satisfied in her marriage, she still remembers the love she felt for the handsome young thing and she longs to fall in love again. She hopes Georg is the one.... and well... we all know the rest.
Wow! this is fun making up back stories for characters!!
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Post by utility_singer on Jan 28, 2015 12:06:24 GMT
@charleybec for the win. That's awesome.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2015 12:25:01 GMT
@charleybec for the win. That's awesome. I wasn't posting to win, but I'll take it! LOL!! |
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 28, 2015 22:44:29 GMT
Some more ideas that have occurred to me after reading your lovely comments:
"When your husband died, he left you a terrible fortune..." Maybe this actually refers to a fortune from ill-gotten gains: from gun-running/racketeering? Drugs? ...Worse?! This would saddle Elsa with quite a headache if she has any moral fibre - should she enjoy the proceeds? Does Georg know?
Perhaps E and G were an item before her husband died. As well as Elsa having a guilt trip to deal with, they both may be having to cope with the realisation that despite that, they aren't meant for marriage to each other.
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 29, 2015 1:12:46 GMT
Love what you've done here @charleybec. Seems to fill the bill - she doesn't seem to have any regrets or emotion over her late husband. She's a little cold, also, about Georg's dead wife as well, I don't like the way she says he was left with a terrible heartache.
I often think that Georg might have envisioned a similar sort of companionable marriage to Elsa - not that he really thought he loved her, but it would be good enough. Clearly Elsa wanted more than that from Georg, though, right? Even though her first marriage probably wasn't made in paradise?
I love this thread!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 3:04:19 GMT
Oh I love this thread too! After I wrote that bit last night, I had an urge to write an Elsa story too! LOL!! I think everyone needs to write an Elsa story at some point in their life!! But I love what you said augiesannie about Georg and settling for a companionship marriage. I think many of us have thought and written that he never believed he would find a deep, all consuming true love again after Agathe died, and would probably settle for someone who could tick the boxes, so to speak, of what he needed from a wife. Elsa did - except liking the children part and being in love with part.... D'oh!!! |
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Post by utility_singer on Jan 29, 2015 3:09:03 GMT
I don't know----I think Elsa may have been very content with Georg and "good enough". He's handsome, well-respected, sexy, financially stable, handsome, sexy, smart, handsome....I will always maintain that while perhaps she loved him she was not IN love with him. That could have made for a quite content marriage, but once there was more that that on the table (Maria, and his feelings for her) content wouldn't have been enough for him, and Elsa cared about him enough to not stand in the way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 29, 2015 6:27:38 GMT
Oh totally agree utility_singer. Btw, I don't think you mentioned sexy enough times!  |
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Post by utility_singer on Jan 29, 2015 12:01:35 GMT
Oh totally agree utility_singer. Btw, I don't think you mentioned sexy enough times! That word can never be mentioned enough in describing that man.  |
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 30, 2015 23:50:51 GMT
Interesting - idly googling Baron Schraeder to see if there was such a person, I got a Baron von Schroder, whose date of birth (1889 in Hamburg) would fit nicely for a husband for Elsa. He was from the Schroder banking family, and sounds like he had a terrible fortune in that he had enough spare to bankroll the Nazi party.
Hmm, food for thought for those wanting to write a story about Elsa and her husband?!
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 25, 2023 0:08:35 GMT
I am posting this here for all you Baroness fans, and also to dredge up this great thread which explores all sorts of ideas about Elsa and her first marriage. www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN3JqGfiHqk Amazingly professional video from the wonderful littleguinea...I do think she captures how excruciating it must have been to be Elsa at the villa. |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 27, 2023 20:45:51 GMT
I am posting this here for all you Baroness fans, and also to dredge up this great thread which explores all sorts of ideas about Elsa and her first marriage. www.youtube.com/watch?v=zN3JqGfiHqk Amazingly professional video from the wonderful littleguinea...I do think she captures how excruciating it must have been to be Elsa at the villa. Fabulous! The song lyrics were great. I especially liked "I'm right over here. Why can't you see me?" This is the perfect line for Elsa watching Georg who is watching Maria go back into the house after she returns from the abbey. That was well placed. And again that line comes up while Georg is directing all of his attention to Maria during Edelweiss. It was interesting to watch the clips without hearing the actual dialogue. It really allowed me to focus on their expressions. I need to rewatch the scene where Elsa and Georg are walking back into the house after the Laendler. There are some looks there that need deeper analysis. I also liked the light filter that was used. It made Elsa's party dress look silver, which was very pretty. Poor Elsa. The whole situation was very unfair from her perspective. |
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