|
Post by mariarainers on Sept 4, 2020 3:31:25 GMT
Seeing this thread made me want to bring up something that has been on my mind, especially recently. Not to get too into politics on here, but how would Georg, our anti-Nazi hero, feel about the current political issues and movements in modern society (this is coming from a US citizen, but it could be applied to anyone, I feel)? I won't go into my personal beliefs on this post, but I'm curious to see what some of you all might think? (If this is too touchy of a topic, I completely understand!)
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Sept 11, 2020 22:37:49 GMT
Hi mariarainers I think I will pass on the political question, except to say that I have learned from my research that Georg was anti Nazi but in a conservative authoritarian sort of way (you can read more about it here and tell me if I'm wrong!) And indigoblue my own grandfather was born in what was the AH Empire and was definitely a fan (although he didn't wear a trachten jacket). He had emigrated to the US by the time the Empire dissolved, but he never forgave the architects of post WW1 Europe. I think Jewish people felt safer with the Emperor and if you look at how many of the former Empire countries deported Jews and others in subsequent years, they may have been right!
|
|
|
Post by mariarainers on Sept 12, 2020 2:10:05 GMT
I totally get why you would pass; this has just been on my mind lately and I was curious to see if anyone else had thoughts on it. Also, thank you so much for sending me that article, I’ll have to read the essay in full sometime! It’s interesting to see how the author described Georg as an authoritarian conservative. There really isn’t that much talk about what else the Nazis were doing and what they had been doing in the film — maybe it was too sensitive a topic for 1965 audiences. I think for 2020 audiences there needs to be a conversation about the politics of the film, and what they do and don’t show. Very interesting.
|
|
|
Post by NatureCalleth on Sept 17, 2020 0:14:40 GMT
I totally get why you would pass; this has just been on my mind lately and I was curious to see if anyone else had thoughts on it. Also, thank you so much for sending me that article, I’ll have to read the essay in full sometime! It’s interesting to see how the author described Georg as an authoritarian conservative. There really isn’t that much talk about what else the Nazis were doing and what they had been doing in the film — maybe it was too sensitive a topic for 1965 audiences. I think for 2020 audiences there needs to be a conversation about the politics of the film, and what they do and don’t show. Very interesting. Someone described Georg as a W H A T?
|
|
|
Post by NatureCalleth on Sept 17, 2020 0:22:06 GMT
Hi mariarainers I think I will pass on the political question, except to say that I have learned from my research that Georg was anti Nazi but in a conservative authoritarian sort of way (you can read more about it here and tell me if I'm wrong!) And indigoblue my own grandfather was born in what was the AH Empire and was definitely a fan (although he didn't wear a trachten jacket). He had emigrated to the US by the time the Empire dissolved, but he never forgave the architects of post WW1 Europe. I think Jewish people felt safer with the Emperor and if you look at how many of the former Empire countries deported Jews and others in subsequent years, they may have been right! He was vehemently anti-Nazi, and also, like... idk how you're supposed to address antisemitism in a kids movie? If you mean real life Georg, I can believe it, but the movie Georg? Idk. And I don't see it as Fascism or Authoritarianism from Georg. It's Nationalism, which honestly, I'm not quite fond of either as a far-leftist, but it's definitely different from Fascism and Authoritarianism. I can certainly understand the sentiment, as growing up in the U.S.A. (vomit), Nationalism is shoved down our throats from day one. So many people end up falling into the trap (Trapp haha funnee) of thinking the US is the greatest country on Earth, when in reality that is very far from the actual truth. Especially with how fascism has been growing in our country for so long and coming to such a head.
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Sept 17, 2020 12:25:51 GMT
I totally get why you would pass; this has just been on my mind lately and I was curious to see if anyone else had thoughts on it. Also, thank you so much for sending me that article, I’ll have to read the essay in full sometime! It’s interesting to see how the author described Georg as an authoritarian conservative. There really isn’t that much talk about what else the Nazis were doing and what they had been doing in the film — maybe it was too sensitive a topic for 1965 audiences. I think for 2020 audiences there needs to be a conversation about the politics of the film, and what they do and don’t show. Very interesting. Someone described Georg as a W H A T? I was just sharing the article referred to in my comment above - I'm not an expert and have no idea if it's right, one never knows with the Internet.
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Sept 17, 2020 12:28:29 GMT
Hi mariarainers I think I will pass on the political question, except to say that I have learned from my research that Georg was anti Nazi but in a conservative authoritarian sort of way (you can read more about it here and tell me if I'm wrong!) And indigoblue my own grandfather was born in what was the AH Empire and was definitely a fan (although he didn't wear a trachten jacket). He had emigrated to the US by the time the Empire dissolved, but he never forgave the architects of post WW1 Europe. I think Jewish people felt safer with the Emperor and if you look at how many of the former Empire countries deported Jews and others in subsequent years, they may have been right! He was vehemently anti-Nazi, and also, like... idk how you're supposed to address antisemitism in a kids movie? If you mean real life Georg, I can believe it, but the movie Georg? Idk. And I don't see it as Fascism or Authoritarianism from Georg. It's Nationalism, which honestly, I'm not quite fond of either as a far-leftist, but it's definitely different from Fascism and Authoritarianism. I can certainly understand the sentiment, as growing up in the U.S.A. (vomit), Nationalism is shoved down our throats from day one. So many people end up falling into the trap (Trapp haha funnee) of thinking the US is the greatest country on Earth, when in reality that is very far from the actual truth. Especially with how fascism has been growing in our country for so long and coming to such a head. yes, agree that movies can't address many historical realities very well.
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 1, 2021 19:59:05 GMT
If they hadn't escaped at the festival and Georg was taken to Bremerhaven, what do you think would have happened to Maria and the kids? Would they be able to stay in their house/ live normal lives because Georg was a Navy captain? Or would they have had consequences because he tried to resist?
Clearly, Georg would have tried some other way to get out of it, but I was just wondering if his family would be seen as supporting the cause or seen forever as potential threats.
|
|
|
Post by sillywhistle on Feb 10, 2021 1:20:13 GMT
If they hadn't escaped at the festival and Georg was taken to Bremerhaven, what do you think would have happened to Maria and the kids? Would they be able to stay in their house/ live normal lives because Georg was a Navy captain? Or would they have had consequences because he tried to resist? Clearly, Georg would have tried some other way to get out of it, but I was just wondering if his family would be seen as supporting the cause or seen forever as potential threats. I think they would’ve lived under strict Nazi surveillance. I believe that they would’ve used the constant threat to his family’s wellbeing to keep him in line.
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 3, 2022 21:40:34 GMT
I was watching Georg's body language in the party receiving line today. He looks genuinely happy to see the Elberfelds. Then very stern when Zeller steps up. Then very happy again with the man in uniform and his wife who are next in line (one of the very few young couples at the party). None of this is surprising. Except that maybe Georg is more excited to see his old friends than he has let on.
The part I have never really noticed before, and I can't find a good screencap of it, is that Elsa kind of gives Zeller the stink eye as he is walking away after he kisses her hand. I wonder if she actually hates him too, but HAD to invite him for society reasons? Or did she just not like the way he said "Baroness"? Her smile kind of falters after that as if his tone rubbed her the wrong way. Thoughts on Elsa's opinion of Zeller?
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Mar 5, 2022 0:52:28 GMT
I find it odd that Zeller kissed her hand: I can't remember if Elberfeld did? It seems odd that someone in Z's authority position should greet her that way, and I'm wondering whether she felt the same, hence the stinkeye (like he's a dirty old man)?
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 7, 2022 20:44:08 GMT
It looks to me that all of the men kiss her hand. And Georg is kissing the other women's hands. So this must be the thing to do. The germaphobe in me is cringing at the thought!
She still might think he's a dirty old man for any number of other reasons.
|
|
|
Post by missisa on Mar 7, 2022 20:58:57 GMT
absolutely reverendcaptain! I rewatched the scene today to comment on this thread and all I can say is that there is something we don't know that the Baroness is grossed out about and it doesn't seem like anything political. It almost seems that she gets shocked when greeting him, as if remembering something. I think it's not something that Herr Zeller himself ignores because of the speed with which he greets her (besides, he barely looks at her when kissing), this makes me wonder if there hasn't been some unrequited flirtation back in Vienna... hummm I think this gives for many thoughts (fanfics?). I imagine, for example, that perhaps it was Herr Zeller who had slipped away at another of Elsa's pompous parties in Vienna and perhaps caught the Baroness and Georg red-handed (there's a thread somewhere that flirts with the idea of the two getting intimate outside Salzburg), well, then, without a doubt, there is a good reason for her rejection (oh, for God's sake, you again at one of our parties!), and Georg's, also enlarged by political convictions hahahaha don't tell me that it's not fun.
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Mar 7, 2022 23:38:02 GMT
Maybe she does not realise who he is initially, until Georg introduces Z to her?
Or maybe Z murmurs something to her when kissing her hand?
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Mar 8, 2022 0:26:59 GMT
If they hadn't escaped at the festival and Georg was taken to Bremerhaven, what do you think would have happened to Maria and the kids? Would they be able to stay in their house/ live normal lives because Georg was a Navy captain? Or would they have had consequences because he tried to resist? Clearly, Georg would have tried some other way to get out of it, but I was just wondering if his family would be seen as supporting the cause or seen forever as potential threats. I hate to interrupt all the delicious speculation about Herr Z and hand kissing, but there are some awesome fics about the Bremerhaven scenario.
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Mar 8, 2022 0:34:16 GMT
PS my take on this scene - 1) G appears to introduce Z to E, flopping his gloves toward E in a diffident way, suggesting they don't know each other (or G doesn't know they know each other hmmmm) 2) at first, E looks pretty pleased to greet Z, her expression changes after he says "BaronESS" in that creepy way and 3) Z does kind of scuttle away.
That's what I got. I can't believe it took me so many years to start watching in slo-mo.
|
|
|
Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 9, 2022 1:40:39 GMT
HA - isn't it stupid what your brain hears? Full disclosure, all these years I thought Zeller kissed Elsa's hand and then said "very nice", like, delicious, like, Hey Captain Von Sexy Pants, I am making waves with your girl. Thus, this is why I always thought Elsa seemed slightly repulsed by him.
OMG Maybe it's an auditory version of a trompe l'oeil? I have gone back and listened again and I can hear BOTH now.
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Mar 12, 2022 21:29:44 GMT
HA - isn't it stupid what your brain hears? Full disclosure, all these years I thought Zeller kissed Elsa's hand and then said "very nice", like, delicious, like, Hey Captain Von Sexy Pants, I am making waves with your girl. Thus, this is why I always thought Elsa seemed slightly repulsed by him.
OMG Maybe it's an auditory version of a trompe l'oeil? I have gone back and listened again and I can hear BOTH now. In slo-mo it sounds more to me like "Baroness," and that's what the subttitle says, but Chris&Byng, I like yours better, it made me laugh so hard and yes, what girl wouldn't be creeped out by that?
|
|
|
Post by flutes9802 on Apr 21, 2022 3:46:00 GMT
I’m not sure if this is the right thread, but one of the character traits I always loved about Georg was his vehement dislike of the Nazis. Even when he was at his most closed off- how do you not like this as part of his character? It was consistent from beginning to end. He was an Austrian who didn’t like the Nazis. He had principles.
And even if it was at best unpopular and at worst life threatening: he stuck to them and openly said what he thought. Elsa was right: he IS independent. So was the RM. He is a fine man (in more ways than one!lol) and a brave one.
One of my all time favorite exchanges is when Max goes off on his: “what’s going to happen is going to happen, just make sure it doesn’t happen to you” and that he has no political convictions - can he help it if others do….and Georg snaps” oh yes you can help it. You *must* help it.” Love it. I do love a man with convictions. If you stand for nothing, you’ll fall for anything.
Being the kind of movie it was, they mostly just focused on him being a patriot. But given the consequences for being vocally anti Nazi- he had to object to more than “just” losing his country. He had to dislike the way they crushed opposition in general. Their tactics, if you will. If that makes sense.
Side note: I tend to think Max was a different man in the end. The man who didn’t want to be involved went way out of his way to help his friends. He didn’t have to do any of it.
I also thought it was significant that when Herr Zeller said they could sing at the concert- because HE wanted it that way- so they could show Austria was the same….the camera panned to Max’s face. All Zeller had just done is demonstrate how Austria wasn’t the same. And the price that would be paid for everyone just going along. None of that was lost on Max imo.
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Apr 21, 2022 23:09:13 GMT
Yes, I agree that we tend to forget how principled he is as a character (we get distracted by his looks...). So is the reason he and Maria are attracted to each other because he brings out Maria's good principles? Certainly she is a more chaotic character at the Abbey, and changes considerably at the villa. Would this have happened if she had not met him?
And Max - may have consigned himself to a sticky end at the hands of the Nazis by helping the von Trapps. Is the film actually about people gaining principles? Even Elsa seemed to become more selfless by relinquishing her relationship with Georg so he and Maria could get together and recreate the vT family (for the kids).
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on May 17, 2022 21:57:36 GMT
It is easy to see the changes in Georg because his changes were so reflected in children and household. Maria's changes were more subtle, but still quite significant. And no, I don't think they would have happened without Georg. She was a misfit at the abbey, breaking rules just like she did at the villa, but at the abbey it wasn't to set anyone free except herself. She didn't belong there, and she may have figured that out (or more likely RM would have kept sending her away until she found somewhere that she fit better than the abbey). She is more impulsive and naive in the beginning and more confident and calm in the end. Georg definitely brings that out in her.
Max is such a fabulous character all around. He does go from charming sponge to life saving hero as the movie goes on, but I suspect that he always had that in him. He just had no reason to show that side of himself until they were in a desperate situation.
Many characters progress during the course of the movie if you think about it - Elsa, Liesl, Sister Berthe, even Rolf.
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on May 18, 2022 23:19:22 GMT
So what happened to Rolf in the end?
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on May 19, 2022 19:40:40 GMT
In the play, he sees the family hiding and then yells down to his lieutenant that no one is on the roof, showing that he has some compassion and morals after all. I don't know what happens to movie Rolf. Maybe he reflects on the captain telling him that he'll never be a Nazi, and tries to get away? Or maybe he carries on being a Nazi soldier throughout the war. Either way, he has to look back and wonder - how did I get myself into this?
|
|
|
Post by missisa on May 19, 2022 20:40:33 GMT
If we think of Rolf as the fool he certainly was, he has no more interest than a brainwashed young man. But that version of the play is very interesting, I had never heard of it! In the movie, I always imagined Rolf justifying himself to Herr Zeller and selling his version that he had actually found them instead of reality (the unarmed Captain did petrified him with just his presence). And what about the gun? must have been something difficult for Rolf to explain its loss. Perhaps he could save his neck this time but not shine militarily (and never became one of them as the Captain said), so all the military disappointment, plus regretting having lost Liesl and a decent life, would have torture his entire existence. Poor Rolf!
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 20, 2022 23:12:20 GMT
I recently had the opportunity to tour a WWII submarine. I couldn't help but think of Georg. He served in WWI of course, but I imagine there would be many similarities between this ship and Georg's. The accommodations were quite shocking to me. Three men shared a bed, each sleeping an 8 hour shift. Men stepped over torpedoes to get to their beds. No daylight, fresh air, or showers for 3 months at a time. Days were spent in either total boredom or intense fear that they would be sunk by an enemy ship. If they needed to dive down fast, everyone without a specific job would run to the front and pile on top of each other to add weight to the nose of the ship.
Learning about it was insightful into Georg's character in many ways. First, he doesn't seem to care much about social standing, deciding to marry the governess and all. Men who go to war together come back as brothers (is this how "uncle" max got his title?). He would have been onboard ships with people of every class and learned to respect them for who they are, not how much money they had. Second, if you are in command of such a vessel, you would need your crew to follow instructions without question. Everyone's life depended on it. You would never make decisions based on making someone happy or appeasing the masses. You would make the decision that is best for the ship. It therefore would make perfect sense to him to apply discipline to his household to restore order, and that the opinions of his staff or children would have no bearing on this decision.
Interesting that he was able to give up some of his control to Maria. He must have found her a worthy captain in her own right.
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Jul 22, 2022 14:15:57 GMT
I love insights like this! 😊
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Jul 24, 2022 23:49:33 GMT
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Jul 25, 2022 15:17:44 GMT
I can't imagine why anyone would want to spend their time on a submarine, especially in WWI, when they must have been so primitive and your chance of surviving in there would have been minimal.
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 8, 2022 22:14:32 GMT
What are Elsa's political convictions? She doesn't have any reaction to Max's "just make sure it doesn't happen to you" line. Though, Georg's reaction startles her.
I'm sure she is capable of getting along with anyone in the elite circle, though I wonder what she actually feels deep down about the politics of the time.
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Nov 12, 2022 0:39:08 GMT
I think I am right in saying that in the play, Elsa was slightly sympathetic to the Nazi cause. If this is the case, it may be another reason why she could see that she and Georg were not going to work together. I believe many Austrians welcomed the Nazis into Vienna in the Anschluss, and she may have been one of them.
|
|