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Post by augiesannie on Jul 24, 2015 0:29:39 GMT
(there's a really good thread lemacd started about this at one point but I can't find it). so Maria wants to be a nun, she really doesn't want to leave the Abbey, she is praying and trying to do God's will. At some point, presumably not entirely in jest, she says, she's not sure she'll make a very good nun. By the time she runs away to the Abbey, she tries to talk RM into letting her take her vows (but we know she probably isn't meant to do so) and in the end finds the life she was born to live, not as a nun. So: did she really hink she was meant to be a nun at the outset? Her attraction to Georg aside (if it can be put aside), was she having doubts during her summer at the villa? Or is it just her love for Georg that changes her mind? I have my opinion, what's yours? |
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jul 24, 2015 1:45:54 GMT
I know many a story say she became interested in the Abbey because it provided a home and sense of belonging that she hadn't had before. I think most people would agree that she has wanted to serve God pretty much all her life, so the fact that the Abbey also had an opportunity for her to do that added to her wanting to be a nun.
Basically I think she didn't really think about it from the point of view 'I want to be a nun' but rather 'I want to serve God and this place allows me to do that and have a sense of belonging'. Then once she's started down that road, she believes she has to continue. I think when she gets to the villa she starts seeing that maybe God's will is not at the Abbey, but she doesn't know anything else and when she gets overwhelmed after the party she runs to the only other place she has.
In short, I think falling in love makes her see that she can serve God another way, as evidenced in the 'Climb Ev'ry Mountain' scene.
Okay, I'll stop rambling now. I hope this makes sense.
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jul 24, 2015 6:41:47 GMT
I think at the outset it was her goal, but as the summer wears on and she sees a different side of life her views start to wain a little. I think she definitely questions it and the reason I say that is because of the small little conversation after the puppet show where she herself says, "I'm not sure I'll make a very good nun." To me this indicates that she has been thinking that it might not necessarily be her future.
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Post by lemacd on Jul 24, 2015 11:27:09 GMT
I'm going to go in a different direction for the sake of discussion. Well and because I see it differently.
She says the line about not being a good nun in response to Elsa's question "is there anything you can't do?" which was a half-compliment (since it was rather snidely said). It's self-deprecation, she fully plans to still be a nun. She's just acknowledging that this is the thing she's not got a firm handle on, that despite Elsa's joke that she's perfect, she really isn't.
I mean, I don't think she'd casually throw out a line like that to Elsa in front of the Captain if she's saying "my time with this family is making me rethink my desires in life". It's just said too lightly IMO.
Sometimes I think we can step back and take lines and scenes at face value and it's just as telling.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2015 12:41:36 GMT
Yes!!! I totally agree lemacd that Elsa's comment of "My dear, is there anything you can't do?" was totally only a half-compliment (and you're right about the snide way she said it). While I do like the discussion angle that perhaps Maria never really wanted to be a nun (blah blah blah) I do agree that for most people when they get a compliment, they tend to fob it off due to a bit of modesty or embarrassment so it could just be that her reply is just that: (example: "Darling you can do ANYTHING", "Well actually I can't do this this or this.." that sort of thing.) It's late, I've had a big day, I'm not making sense. Sorry. I hope something that I said is able to be interpreted. |
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jul 24, 2015 18:39:41 GMT
I guess I can see it that way, but I do think that the line was put in there as a bit of foreshadowing.
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Post by lemacd on Jul 24, 2015 19:28:33 GMT
Of course. And I can also see Elsa hearing something in it, like trouble was on the horizon. But I don't think that moment is complicated. Just one interpretation.
The original question I think was if Maria sincerely wanted to be a nun. I think she did. Not just about belonging. I think she loved God and believed becoming a nun was the ultimate way to give to Him. She truly thought she was wrong to fall in love. She was committed to becoming a nun. Why she ran away.
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Post by utility_singer on Jul 24, 2015 22:10:27 GMT
Of course. And I can also see Elsa hearing something in it, like trouble was on the horizon. But I don't think that moment is complicated. Just one interpretation. The original question I think was if Maria sincerely wanted to be a nun. I think she did. Not just about belonging. I think she loved God and believed becoming a nun was the ultimate way to give to Him. She truly thought she was wrong to fall in love. She was committed to becoming a nun. Why she ran away. This, it is why she was so devastated with what Elsa said to her in the bedroom. Maria truly thought that by being a nun she could love God and serve Him. She knew she wouldn't be very good at the 'trappings' of it---the quiet, the solitude, no running or singing or whistling. But she was sincere. When Elsa called her out, she felt she was betraying God by having been outwardly obvious in her feelings for Georg. How could she truly love God if she loved a man? She also was not doing what she believed God had sent her to do---prepare the children for a new mother---because by her actions she was jeopardizing the G and E pairing. By running back to the Abbey and asking RM to allow her to take her vows, she was trying to return to that which she found safe and comforting. Returning to do God's work. Only when the RM told her that love between and man and a woman can be holy did she even attempt to reconcile the two in her mind. |
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Post by gothicbutterfly95 on Jul 25, 2015 5:36:59 GMT
Yes I can definitely see that side of it.
I guess I always figured that the Abbey gave her a sense of security and she could serve God at the same time and it was really once she'd entered that she saw this as something she did want to do. Then enter Georg and the rest is history as they say.
Bottom line: I think she did want to be a nun, but didn't think about it with that much certainty until she already entered the Abbey.
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 25, 2015 20:22:08 GMT
Totally agree with lemacd and others about the reply to Elsa. And yes, I think Maria was horrified when Elsa called her on being in love with Georg. But I've also always thought that Maria was also kind of sad that her crush was so hopeless. |
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jul 25, 2015 20:27:06 GMT
Definitely sad and hurting and then when she goes back to the villa and is told he's engaged, she's crushed because she thought he loved her only to find out that he's marrying the baroness. Hence why I think during the gazebo scene when she collapses into him not only does she have a look of elation, but also one of complete relief that she doesn't have to keep all those feelings pent up inside of her any longer.
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Post by lemacd on Jul 25, 2015 20:29:35 GMT
Totally agree with lemacd and others about the reply to Elsa. And yes, I think Maria was horrified when Elsa called her on being in love with Georg. But I've also always thought that Maria was also kind of sad that her crush was so hopeless. When, specifically? Or do you mean in general? I suppose she's a bit wistful. Sees the other way to go, family and home. And I do think she indulged in the fantasy of them as her family and telling herself that it's all just pretend. I'm not sure she knows what she's doing to herself. She's a dreamer. I think RM knew Maria needed to go out of the abbey where her dreaming would have consequences. And it did. |
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Post by sagaofjenny on Jul 26, 2015 19:32:53 GMT
I'm not sure she knows what she's doing to herself. She's a dreamer. I think RM knew Maria needed to go out of the abbey where her dreaming would have consequences. And it did. LOOOOVE this. |
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 26, 2015 23:57:04 GMT
I spotted this newspaper article some weeks ago, and it seemed so relevant to our musings on Maria's vocation, that I thought I would include it here. I am hoping it will answer some of the questions that have been unanswered, and engender more discussion. The article is rather long, so I have had to precis it a bit; happy reading!
Why would anyone become a nun.docx (18.54 KB)
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 8, 2015 15:45:49 GMT
I had to look up the origin of 'Trappist nun', because I couldn't believe it was connected with Our Friends...
No, it's related to La Trappe Abbey, where silence was first encouraged!
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 13, 2015 0:21:28 GMT
I have a vague idea we have had this posted before, but thought it was appropriate here.
It's taken at the Nonnberg Abbey - presumably they are spinning wool? |
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Post by clarinetjamie on Nov 13, 2015 6:42:09 GMT
That's an interesting pic.
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 30, 2016 0:21:53 GMT
I was talking to someone who had been teaching at a Cistercian convent recently (not a nun), as a favour for her friend, the Rev Mother there. Her comments provide some useful background, namely that the nuns were surprisingly up-to-date with such things as world affairs, and were very internet savvy. However, this may be as a foil to the fact that some of the nuns can get a bit 'bored' with having the same small number of nuns to talk to all the time, especially as many of the convents are very depleted in numbers.
She found it very difficult to tell the age of each nun, as their hair is covered by their whimples (?and may be shaved-she couldn't tell for sure),and because the life they lead is relatively free of worry, their faces are quite unlined. She tried to show one nun how to do some fiddly needlework, and the nun replied "I'll try, but don't expect too much as I'm 92!" My friend had no idea!
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Post by absurdlittlebird on Sept 5, 2017 11:34:54 GMT
Of course. And I can also see Elsa hearing something in it, like trouble was on the horizon. But I don't think that moment is complicated. Just one interpretation. The original question I think was if Maria sincerely wanted to be a nun. I think she did. Not just about belonging. I think she loved God and believed becoming a nun was the ultimate way to give to Him. She truly thought she was wrong to fall in love. She was committed to becoming a nun. Why she ran away. This, it is why she was so devastated with what Elsa said to her in the bedroom. Maria truly thought that by being a nun she could love God and serve Him. She knew she wouldn't be very good at the 'trappings' of it---the quiet, the solitude, no running or singing or whistling. But she was sincere. When Elsa called her out, she felt she was betraying God by having been outwardly obvious in her feelings for Georg. How could she truly love God if she loved a man? She also was not doing what she believed God had sent her to do---prepare the children for a new mother---because by her actions she was jeopardizing the G and E pairing. By running back to the Abbey and asking RM to allow her to take her vows, she was trying to return to that which she found safe and comforting. Returning to do God's work. Only when the RM told her that love between and man and a woman can be holy did she even attempt to reconcile the two in her mind. This an old thread but I just wanted to say I 100% agree with this interpretation. I'm a committed Christian, I have been all my life. And it's silly to think now but I had never really properly understood that God views true marriage to be such an incredibly Holy act. I'd no doubt heard a lot about marriage within church growing up but I'd never properly understood just how sacred it is to God until very recently. So I can completely see Maria feeling utterly guilty once Elsa had that conversation with her and she realised that she had fallen in love (or I'm not sure if she knew it was love yet, but she definitely had strong feelings towards him). Without that understanding that she could love and honour God with her life just as much as a wife as she could as a nun, she would have completely felt like her feelings for Georg were completely wrong and a true betrayal to her faith. |
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Post by augiesannie on Sept 5, 2017 23:08:41 GMT
Yes, I do get that. Maria didn't look all that guilty during the puppet show. Or the Laendler. I think it was also her understanding the hopelessness of her crush. Both things really.
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Post by lemacd on Sept 6, 2017 1:06:44 GMT
I like to think that she indulged herself with a very PG rated fantasy that all of it was hers... that he was hers. She didn't think anyone would know and it was just so nice to think about and what would it hurt? She certainly didn't think she was any competition for Elsa and she was going to be a nun, God would forgive her. She just didn't realize she wore it all over her face and that what sets her apart from women like Elsa was exactly what would attract Georg in the first place.
I think her guilt was because she thought she abused the privilege of serving God when she went to the villa. She was taught to obey the will of God which according to the RM at the beginning was to leave the Abbey. That was it. Not all of God's will is revealed to us upfront. That is what faith is for, believing that where He leads is going to bring us to His plan. Maria decided her errand was to prepare the children for a new mother. Well... again, not entirely wrong but she had it one way in her head and clearly God's plan was another way. She felt guilty that didn't fulfill her obligation and I say she fulfilled it just by going and doing what is right and good.
The love b/w man and woman is holy... yes, she needed to know that as well, though I suspect she knew it. She just never put it on par with being a nun as a righteous calling.
Am I on topic? I feel like I've gone off topic...
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Post by utility_singer on Sept 6, 2017 11:26:54 GMT
I like to think that she indulged herself with a very PG rated fantasy that all of it was hers... that he was hers. She didn't think anyone would know and it was just so nice to think about and what would it hurt? She certainly didn't think she was any competition for Elsa and she was going to be a nun, God would forgive her. She just didn't realize she wore it all over her face and that what sets her apart from women like Elsa was exactly what would attract Georg in the first place. I think her guilt was because she thought she abused the privilege of serving God when she went to the villa. She was taught to obey the will of God which according to the RM at the beginning was to leave the Abbey. That was it. Not all of God's will is revealed to us upfront. That is what faith is for, believing that where He leads is going to bring us to His plan. Maria decided her errand was to prepare the children for a new mother. Well... again, not entirely wrong but she had it one way in her head and clearly God's plan was another way. She felt guilty that didn't fulfill her obligation and I say she fulfilled it just by going and doing what is right and good. The love b/w man and woman is holy... yes, she needed to know that as well, though I suspect she knew it. She just never put it on par with being a nun as a righteous calling. Am I on topic? I feel like I've gone off topic... Yes, to all of this, including that you are on topic. I see it as certainly God sent her to prepare the children for a new mother. She just didn't expect to BE the mother she was preparing them to have. |
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Post by augiesannie on Sept 10, 2017 22:09:52 GMT
Agree!
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Post by clarinetjamie on Oct 8, 2017 5:49:46 GMT
Agree to all of it. That prayer where she says she's there to prepare the children. For a new mother has always intrigued me.
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Post by augiesannie on Oct 22, 2017 20:49:10 GMT
I like to think that she indulged herself with a very PG rated fantasy that all of it was hers... that he was hers. She didn't think anyone would know and it was just so nice to think about and what would it hurt? She certainly didn't think she was any competition for Elsa and she was going to be a nun, God would forgive her. She just didn't realize she wore it all over her face and that what sets her apart from women like Elsa was exactly what would attract Georg in the first place. I think her guilt was because she thought she abused the privilege of serving God when she went to the villa. She was taught to obey the will of God which according to the RM at the beginning was to leave the Abbey. That was it. Not all of God's will is revealed to us upfront. That is what faith is for, believing that where He leads is going to bring us to His plan. Maria decided her errand was to prepare the children for a new mother. Well... again, not entirely wrong but she had it one way in her head and clearly God's plan was another way. She felt guilty that didn't fulfill her obligation and I say she fulfilled it just by going and doing what is right and good. The love b/w man and woman is holy... yes, she needed to know that as well, though I suspect she knew it. She just never put it on par with being a nun as a righteous calling. Am I on topic? I feel like I've gone off topic... Yes, to all of this, including that you are on topic. I see it as certainly God sent her to prepare the children for a new mother. She just didn't expect to BE the mother she was preparing them to have. I know I liked this before, but I just reread it and it made me laugh out loud!!! |
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 20, 2020 8:37:14 GMT
Agree to all of it. That prayer where she says she's there to prepare the children. For a new mother has always intrigued me. Initially she did not want to leave the Abbey. RM told her that this is the will of God. So she was searching to find what God exactly wanted her to do, shape her framework of actions and succeed in her mission, in order to come back to the abbey and become a nun. Maybe she saw it as a test of her capacities, because as a postulant she was not an asset to the abbey as the nuns say. Therefore she tried to become an asset to the Trapp villa and family by preparing the kids for a new mother after being orphans for 5 years. I do not think she had a calling for being a nun. She fervently wished to belong somewhere and be accepted and respected. The abbey may have been strict for her carefree spirit and hobbies but the nuns undoubtedly loved her!! and cared about her. She had a home there, nuns that loved her and a goal to achieve, serve the will of god by becoming a nun. |
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