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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 20, 2022 21:53:40 GMT
I keep sticking comments about The Apology in The Argument thread, but they really don't belong there, so I'm starting a new thread about it.
The Apology is definitely a turning point in G&M's relationship (I don't mean romantically, yet). This is where they go from enemies to allies, from trying desperately to get the other to do something he/she is opposed to, to having a common goal. Am I overstating this?
What do you think Maria means by "If I could be of any help"? Clearly she has already been of help, making the scene she just saw in the sitting room possible.
I wonder when the last time Georg apologized to someone was.
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 24, 2022 23:11:02 GMT
No, I don't think you are overstating things, because up to that point they had been pretty uncompromising with each other...hostile is a word which comes to mind, but perhaps that is too strong for it. Georg's tetchiness is clear, but Maria wasn't going to let herself be steamrollered either, but in The Apology they call a welcome truce.
Maria's "If I could be of any help?", I think is her way of offering to align herself with the household and its way of doing things (so her way of compromising), rather than doing things as it came naturally, although fortunately Georg can see that she does it just fine anyhow.
He probably wouldn't have had to apologise often in the navy as a Captain, nor in his single years after Agathe's death, so it probably did take a bit of humility to get it out! I wonder whether he enjoyed it? Sometimes it can bring you relief...especially if it gets Maria onside...
Maria says she is "far too outspoken, it's one of my worse faults": is this the last time she is outspoken?
And what do Elsa and/or Max think and say when he returns to them in the salon?
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 24, 2022 23:43:30 GMT
One interesting point about "if I could be of any help?" is that Maria had already taken on the task of preparing the children for a new mother - she mentions this in her prayers and teaches them to sing for the Baroness. It's interesting to me that now she is asking/thinking about how to be helpful - maybe her mind and heart are a little more too, as indigoblue suggests. Also what's with that leeful handclap, like, what exactly is it she thinks she's gotten permission for!?! agree he probably doesn't have a lot of experience apologizing, thus the awkward ... "I ask you to ... I want you to." I bet it is not the last time she's outspoken even if we don't see it on screen. I can imagine a lot of different post-apology scenarios for Elsa and Max, but I remember writing it at least once that Elsa totally missed the significance of the moment, all she seems to have noticed is that Georg stepped away for a few minutes and apparently agreed to let the governess stay, which Elsa would probably have supported since Maria would keep the children busy and also Elsa did find Maria's antics amusing ...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 19, 2022 20:48:08 GMT
Also what's with that leeful handclap, like, what exactly is it she thinks she's gotten permission for!?! I've wondered this too! She clearly has ideas that she is ready to put in motion. What is her first priority? Go buy puppets? Completely revamp the schedule (play all morning, family time after dinner, etc.)?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 8, 2022 22:24:20 GMT
Why do you think Maria doesn't respond when he says "I want you to stay"? Is she in shock that he would want her to stay after the argument? Does she sense that he's going to say more? Is she waiting for him to ask her to stay instead of just stating what he wants and expecting it to happen? There is a pause there with no reaction from her that I'm trying to figure out.
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 9, 2022 0:34:25 GMT
I think her instincts tell her not to capitulate if he is going to continue in his autocratic style, and fortunately by waiting, he senses that. So she has a sort of hold over him, because he realises he has to get her to agree to stay, hence his subsequent asking her in a more gentle tone.
"If I can be of any help" is a lovely response, reflecting back that tenderness (so much more than "Oooh, I'd love to!").
I'm wondering what is going through Julie's mind here: what is she so hopeful for when she claps her hands? Just the kids? Their father?
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Post by missisa on Nov 9, 2022 15:01:22 GMT
Interesting. For me, Maria's clap of applause is not as if she had obtained permission for something other than to stay, but rather, a sign of joy -she, in fact, is very histrionic: she expresses everything with her smile or her body. -except when things get difficult romantically (I think, in fact, that the last genuine gesture she has is when she puts her hands to her face after the Laender. OK, I'm going out of topic...). I love the power of The Apology scene: we are looking at Georg from above and placing him very low with his head up as if begging: he is really begging for Maria's forgiveness.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 2, 2023 20:12:39 GMT
What prompts Maria's smile after "I ask you to stay"? Is it just relief that she isn't getting fired since she now likes being at the villa? Was she hoping to get a little more humility out of the captain and she got it with his whispered asking (as opposed to the confident statement of what he wanted the line before)?
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 4, 2023 0:05:48 GMT
I think it's because he's realised he has to negotiate with her/persuade her rather than make demands - an important change and an essential building block for their future relationship, so she smiles to express her approval. He is much less demanding after this, except for when he refuses permission to Max for the kids to sing in public.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 4, 2023 0:08:30 GMT
I read/saw Julie saying somewhere that this scene was the one that touched her the most - that Chris' performance just was so utterly perfect and heartfelt.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 4, 2023 0:31:14 GMT
Yes, I can see that he could easily have seemed insincere. Also in the scene in the drawing room, singing SOM with his children for the first time could have ended up gooey and tacky (especially from someone who didn't naturally take to children).
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 20, 2023 10:06:12 GMT
Yes, I can see that he could easily have seemed insincere. Also in the scene in the drawing room, singing SOM with his children for the first time could have ended up gooey and tacky (especially from someone who didn't naturally take to children). The genius of Chris' acting. I also always imagine that her clapping in delight suggests all the good ideas she has for things she can do with the children now that she has his approval. But wait, he's been gone for weeks, so she hasn't really been limited that way. Maybe .... she is delighted to think that it is now smooth sailing for the vT family life, with the new mother and all.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 23, 2023 0:29:20 GMT
Yes, I can see that he could easily have seemed insincere. Also in the scene in the drawing room, singing SOM with his children for the first time could have ended up gooey and tacky (especially from someone who didn't naturally take to children). The genius of Chris' acting. I also always imagine that her clapping in delight suggests all the good ideas she has for things she can do with the children now that she has his approval. But wait, he's been gone for weeks, so she hasn't really been limited that way. Maybe .... she is delighted to think that it is now smooth sailing for the vT family life, with the new mother and all. There's a quote in Julie's book about this - that the clapping and then running up the stairs was spontaneous on her part because she found Chris' performance to be so deeply moving - and that "Bob let [her] run with it"
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 23, 2023 12:52:50 GMT
It's such a lovely, natural gesture.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 27, 2023 19:15:10 GMT
The genius of Chris' acting. I also always imagine that her clapping in delight suggests all the good ideas she has for things she can do with the children now that she has his approval. But wait, he's been gone for weeks, so she hasn't really been limited that way. Maybe .... she is delighted to think that it is now smooth sailing for the vT family life, with the new mother and all. There's a quote in Julie's book about this - that the clapping and then running up the stairs was spontaneous on her part because she found Chris' performance to be so deeply moving - and that "Bob let [her] run with it" Ooh, I love this kind of background info. If there are any other tidbits like this that you remember from the book, I'd be happy to learn about them. In keeping with Julie's line of thinking, maybe Maria's reaction was just supposed to be elation with how moved she was with the captain's transformation, and not necessarily excitement over things to come.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 28, 2023 10:54:58 GMT
Come to think of it, she's probably also happy that she gets to stay - she was on her way upstairs to "pack her things!"
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Post by Chris&Byng on Apr 26, 2023 0:02:12 GMT
One interesting point about "if I could be of any help?" is that Maria had already taken on the task of preparing the children for a new mother - she mentions this in her prayers and teaches them to sing for the Baroness. It's interesting to me that now she is asking/thinking about how to be helpful - maybe her mind and heart are a little more too, as indigoblue suggests. Also what's with that leeful handclap, like, what exactly is it she thinks she's gotten permission for!?! agree he probably doesn't have a lot of experience apologizing, thus the awkward ... "I ask you to ... I want you to." I bet it is not the last time she's outspoken even if we don't see it on screen. I can imagine a lot of different post-apology scenarios for Elsa and Max, but I remember writing it at least once that Elsa totally missed the significance of the moment, all she seems to have noticed is that Georg stepped away for a few minutes and apparently agreed to let the governess stay, which Elsa would probably have supported since Maria would keep the children busy and also Elsa did find Maria's antics amusing ... oooh, this is so fun (and I have grading to do, so it's definitely more fun than what I should be doing!)
I think there's a whole emotional change in this scene just by Georg's word choice/transformation. When Georg calls out: 'I want you to stay', the emotional "baggage" is carried by Georg; it's about him and something he wants; but I think he realizes he's been nothing but bossy since he met Maria, and his word selection is one way of demonstrating the changes she's wrought in him as a man.
"I ask you to stay" puts the onus on Maria. (Like, the other day I asked my neighbour if I could borrow her lawnmower (long story LOL) - and that puts the ball in her court, she could say 'yes' or she could say 'no'). I think it's very powerful because he is used to wanting stuff and getting it, but he realizes Maria is within her right to turn him down at this point.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 26, 2023 21:55:47 GMT
Yes, and it places her as an equal to him too.
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Post by augiesannie on Jun 3, 2023 22:59:50 GMT
I like how he hesitates oh so slightly: "I - uh - ask you to stay." Like it's not a natural act for him.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jun 20, 2023 20:09:53 GMT
I like how he hesitates oh so slightly: "I - uh - ask you to stay." Like it's not a natural act for him. I don't think it is natural for him at all. He is not used to having to ask for forgiveness for anything. I think just saying "I apologize" is probably hard on him, but then to have to ask for her to stay is really out of his comfort zone. It is such a pivotal moment. He has already had a drastic change in how he is acting with his children. Whistles and orders melted into songs and hugs. But his relationship with Maria has not changed yet. They are speaking rather than yelling or being sarcastic with one another, so that is progress, but not much. It isn't changed with the beginning of the conversation about him apologizing or behaving badly or not knowing his children, and it still isn't changed with his "I want you to stay." The hesitant, humble asking is what does it. Her reaction is then not a statement or criticism, but a question of how to help. They have both changed how they approach the other, and both silently acknowledged what that meant for the other to do it. They are on the same team now. I love this scene.
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Post by indigoblue on Jun 26, 2023 23:51:51 GMT
It is also a change in style from his naval days, when he was used to giving out orders - "I want you to stay."
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jun 28, 2023 2:10:01 GMT
It is also a change in style from his naval days, when he was used to giving out orders - "I want you to stay." Maybe this is the moment he realizes that his household will never be how he wants it to be if he keeps shouting out orders. He is the head of the Von Trapp family, and therefore makes the decisions for his household, but he is not a captain on a ship anymore. He can't treat his children and employees as of they are subordinate sailors and expect to have a normal functioning household. And giving out orders certainly does not work with Maria. She has not followed any of them since she has arrived. It is time for a change, and he is out of practice in asking. for anything. Fortunately, Maria doesn't seem to mind his stumbling, hesitant request. She knows this is a big step, and it fixes a lot of problems.
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jun 28, 2023 8:41:47 GMT
It think the hand clap is just her being excited to stay and excited to see a change in the Captain and his attitude towards the children. I'm sure it was something that she had been praying for to happen.
As for, "if I could be of any help," I think she may have felt that she overstepped her boundaries a little when arguing with the Captain, even though he really needed to hear what she was saying. He had just fired her and now he is rehiring her and asking her to stay. I think she is just giving a courteous response to smooth things over even more with him and to let him know that she wants to help and be in the same page with him.
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Post by augiesannie on Jun 29, 2023 17:53:00 GMT
It think the hand clap is just her being excited to stay and excited to see a change in the Captain and his attitude towards the children. I'm sure it was something that she had been praying for to happen. As for, "if I could be of any help," I think she may have felt that she overstepped her boundaries a little when arguing with the Captain, even though he really needed to hear what she was saying. He had just fired her and now he is rehiring her and asking her to stay. I think she is just giving a courteous response to smooth things over even more with him and to let him know that she wants to help and be in the same page with him. I like the idea that Maria, too, exhibits some growth as a result of their budding relationship.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 12, 2023 15:06:53 GMT
Good point. I like that she admits to some blame in The Argument too (I'm far to outspoken. It's one of my worst faults). Arguments always smooth over easier if one person doesn't feel that they were 100% in the wrong. He is gaining humility and easing off on being a tyrant. She is toning down the criticism and trying to be cooperative. It is truce instead of one sided admission of fault.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 13, 2023 19:04:07 GMT
I really like that Georg is still and maintains eye contact through this whole scene. He is agitated and pacing during their meeting and the Argument. Even when he is seated at dinner, he is distracted and trying to avoid her. This scene is very calm and very direct. He doesn't make excuses for his behavior. He doesn't cast his eyes down in embarrassment. He looks right up at her and sincerely apologizes. It's very humbling. I think Maria is floored by this, even after just witnessing his walls crumble as he let his children hug him.
It's wonderful acting and wonderful directing.
Did Maria think it was worth it in those few seconds as she scurried away from the sitting room before the Apology happened - to lose her job and be put in her place by the captain, but the end result was that the children got their father back? Probably, right?
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 13, 2023 23:20:33 GMT
I was just thinking that in the hall when they first meet, he moves around a lot and talks a lot, then as you say, in the dinner scene, he is distracted and a bit exasperated. Then in the Thunderstorm scene, he is noticeably still and glares at her all the time, and also in the amazing Apology.
Do you think that, in the Thunderstorm scene, seeing how the kids are drawn to her in such a way that they have clambered onto her bed, this is the first time that he realises her magnetism - both for them, and for him? Is he rather transfixed by her in her humble way (especially being simply dressed and barefoot)?
I suppose he didn't realise his kids were scared by the thunder, so here is a plain display of how he had failed them; not something he would have wanted to acknowledge at that point, but something that he had to take on board. Maybe the once-over look really is him checking her out (in secret)!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 14, 2023 19:08:19 GMT
I like how you're pulling the thunderstorm scene in here, Indigo. You are right, he is still during the thunderstorm scene, which is a contrast to the other times we've seen them interact before. Maybe he is shocked into stillness here because he sees that she has won over the children. In a matter of hours. Which is the same amount of time they managed to run off the last governess. There has to be something about her. I don't think he is attracted to her yet. Not really. Though, she is young and pretty. I'm sure he noticed that, just as he noticed that she was dancing around in her nightgown and bare feet. Though noticing that someone is attractive and feeling attraction towards them are two different things, if that makes any sense.
I think during the thunderstorm he is standing still trying to figure out what it is about this person that is so bewitching to his children. During The Apology he is standing still in humble understanding of what is so bewitching, as he gives in to falling under her spell as well.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 17, 2023 20:19:04 GMT
When Georg says "You have already, more than you know" what do you think he means by that exactly? He knows she saw what just happened in the sitting room. She knows how desperately his children needed that or she wouldn't have been shouting at him about it the moment before. What do you think is affected that she doesn't know about? How deeply he himself has been healed?
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Post by Chris&Byng on Nov 18, 2023 2:19:11 GMT
I was just thinking that in the hall when they first meet, he moves around a lot and talks a lot, then as you say, in the dinner scene, he is distracted and a bit exasperated. Then in the Thunderstorm scene, he is noticeably still and glares at her all the time, and also in the amazing Apology. Do you think that, in the Thunderstorm scene, seeing how the kids are drawn to her in such a way that they have clambered onto her bed, this is the first time that he realises her magnetism - both for them, and for him? Is he rather transfixed by her in her humble way (especially being simply dressed and barefoot)? I suppose he didn't realise his kids were scared by the thunder, so here is a plain display of how he had failed them; not something he would have wanted to acknowledge at that point, but something that he had to take on board. Maybe the once-over look really is him checking her out (in secret)! Oh I love this idea that the way the children are drawn to Maria is also a parallel universe to Georg's attraction and feelings overall. (This really fits well with everything else, as I was always interested in what was going on in his head here. Maria turns away from him to pick up her housecoat and seemingly "cover up" and in that very moment we see Georg giving her a good once-over!)
I guess also, we could draw these parallels to other parts of the movie (i.e. the children singing again represents the return of music to the house for the kids and for Georg; the puppet show "joy" of the children is echoed by Georg; the sadness and trepidation of the children at the news of the Baroness becoming their new mother is echoed by Georg; the joy at Maria's return, etc...)
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