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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 1, 2023 21:48:33 GMT
Ok. The Laendler thread has so many pages now that I can't find anything in there anymore. I'm starting a new thread to talk about when Elsa makes herself known on the terrace and then the awkward walk back to the house after. Hopefully there isn't a thread on this already. If there is, feel free to point me in that direction.
First, I think it is interesting that "That was beautifully done. What a lovely couple you make." is directed solely at Georg. It is similar to "My dear, is there anything you can't do." in that it sounds pleasant toward Maria but is actually a snide comment to Georg. Though, maybe inadvertently, it ends up helping Elsa later with her "What makes it so nice it, he thinks he's in love with you" speech since she's already labeled them as a couple?
Georg takes his gloves off after Elsa shows up. Is this symbolism for something?
Georg is trying so hard to not discuss this!
What a lovely couple you make (he talks about the children)
You thought you wouldn't find a friend at the party (he talks about the weather)
Seemed rather warm to me (he looks away with a distracted whistle)
He's doing his best to avoid eye contact with her too, all the while she is staring him down to see his reaction to her verbal jabs. In contrast, he watched Maria until she was out of sight. Then glanced back later with the excuse of confirming the weather, but I think he secretly wanted to mentally relive what just happened.
It has to be hard to be having a fight with your significant other while trying to look like a happy couple to any guest that looks in your direction.
Any particular line or look stick out to you in this scene?
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 4, 2023 14:52:54 GMT
Taking his gloves off rather suggests he is expecting a fight...perhaps not fisticuffs but psychological, which he got!
Would Elsa have been annoyed if Georg had danced with ANY other lady at the party? i.e, is she just a jealous type? eg If G had danced with one of his maiden aunts (to whom he talked at the end), would she still have minded?
Accepted Maria is a particularly attractive female (which strangely most of the other guests are not), but the only other time we see of Georg showing any interest in her (when Elsa is present), is that odd interaction after the puppet show. Has Elsa seen more flirty stuff before this? Is this the last straw for her?
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 6, 2023 18:42:45 GMT
Taking of the gloves is, to me, symbolic of him stripping away the society expectations.
He is deflecting/avoiding answering her barbs because he is still processing what just happened.
Elsa was jealous of Maria because of what she had witnessed previously, in particular in the Edelweiss scene. Her wheels started turning as she watched their Mutual Admiration Society meeting at the end of the song.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 20, 2023 10:03:21 GMT
I was always struck by "what a lovely couple you make." Yes, snide and jealous. But awfully direct, too. Because it sounds like it's not just about the dance, but a more permanent observation? I love love love your analysis of how Georg attempts to divert the conversation, reverendcaptain. To me, taking off the gloves is another diversion. He put the gloves on when it was time to dance with Maria, and now let's take them off and pretend close the book on that. Which makes that glance backward even swoonier, like you say, using the weather as an excuse because he can't resist checking on her. indigoblue I do wonder if there have been other flirty moments. Elsa must be at her wit's end. |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 22, 2023 20:47:21 GMT
Taking his gloves off rather suggests he is expecting a fight...perhaps not fisticuffs but psychological, which he got! Would Elsa have been annoyed if Georg had danced with ANY other lady at the party? i.e, is she just a jealous type? eg If G had danced with one of his maiden aunts (to whom he talked at the end), would she still have minded? Accepted Maria is a particularly attractive female (which strangely most of the other guests are not), but the only other time we see of Georg showing any interest in her (when Elsa is present), is that odd interaction after the puppet show. Has Elsa seen more flirty stuff before this? Is this the last straw for her? I don't think Elsa would have cared if he had danced with literally anyone else. No one else was a threat to her except Maria. Which must have been quite surprising when she so recently thought that no one was a threat to her at all, and then in comes a young, naive, unsophisticated nun and Georg is swept away. Maybe Elsa is also upset because up until now this flirting has been witnessed only by her and Max (plus the children and staff, but they don't really count here), but now the flirting has gone a step farther to actually dancing, and in eyeshot of all of Salzburg. I think several lines were crossed here by Elsa's standards. "What a lovely couple you make" does seem very permanent augiesannie. And foreshadowing. I mean, who says this about their fiance and his childrens' governess, even in jest? She says it without sarcasm in her tone too, though this is probably so that only Georg understands her jab and everyone else can just think she is pleasantly commenting on the dance. |
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Post by missisa on Mar 22, 2023 22:00:48 GMT
Hey guys! I haven't posted in a long time, I may be a little rusty.
I think the reason for Elsa's hostility here is because she has confirmed that Maria is indeed a threat. After the Edelweiss she still feels in power: Maria retreats early to take care of the children, but in the Laender?! she is dancing with the host almost furtively and the sparks are more than evident🔥
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 22, 2023 23:25:02 GMT
Welcome back missisa! I was thinking that the fact that Maria was a nun would have meant that she would have been allowed to 'intrude' into G and E's space more than if she were not, as she would have been deemed not to be a threat to Elsa. So it must have been all the more shocking when Elsa realised during Edelweiss that G had eyes for her. Rather like finding an enemy in your midst! Also, reverendcaptain 's point about Elsa saying "What a lovely couple you make" without sarcasm is a good one, to me it makes her seem quite vulnerable...was this all part of a ploy to recapture Georg after his dalliance, or genuine hurt? |
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 23, 2023 11:37:18 GMT
I think genuine hurt. Here she is wandering around a party that was supposedly given in her honor, looking for her intended fiance, and she finds him smoldering in a clinch with the governess. There wasn't time for her to put on the mask of control yet. We see it start to return with her quip, "Seemed quite warm to me."
She is watching the two of them while the children sing---first checking for Georg's reactions, then seeing the two of them share that look as the children go upstairs. Not until Georg invited Maria to join the dinner, HER dinner, when Georg would presumable toast her in front of his friends, was she able to muster up her hurt and anger to go shoo Maria away for good.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 23, 2023 12:51:00 GMT
Yes, and she doesn't know how long this 'affair' has been going on - maybe long before, when she was in Vienna. So to feel that not only has she has walked in on this, but that Georg invited her to come too, must make her feel very cheated.
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 24, 2023 11:14:30 GMT
No, I'm fairly certain Elsa knew Maria was the new governess (as that was the reason he could go see her in Vienna) so knowing it started while she was at the villa would have been the big betrayal.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 27, 2023 19:26:06 GMT
I agree with Utility, I think genuine hurt. She has to be thinking about all of the times she had danced with Georg at her parties in Vienna, and that not once had he looked at her like he just looked at Maria. They do make a lovely couple, and they look like a couple in love. Maybe Elsa could pass off the puppet show aftermath and Edelweiss as just minor flirtatious behavior, but this was something different altogether. And then they continued the smoldering gaze after the children's song. Who knows what would have happened if they had been at dinner together. Clearly they were not afraid of having these moments out in the open as they were happening in the middle of a party. Elsa had to be horrified as to how things were happening.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 28, 2023 10:53:15 GMT
wow. "smoldering in a clinch" LOL utility_singerso happy to see you here, missisa! reverendcaptain I love the idea that G had never looked at E that way while dancing (or any other time) I really liked being reminded that Elsa is mostly hurt here. I'm thinking back on our conversation about her glances at M&G during the Edelweiss, as she begins to realize something is up ... |
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Post by Chris&Byng on Apr 15, 2023 0:42:09 GMT
wow. "smoldering in a clinch" LOL utility_singer so happy to see you here, missisa ! reverendcaptain I love the idea that G had never looked at E that way while dancing (or any other time) I really liked being reminded that Elsa is mostly hurt here. I'm thinking back on our conversation about her glances at M&G during the Edelweiss, as she begins to realize something is up ... I wonder if Elsa had just accepted that Georg was 'as he was' after Agathe died - he was a companion, someone who made her laugh, someone who she enjoyed spending time with, but she knew he could not love again. Then she stumbles upon the Laendler and it's smokin' hot, and Georg is looking at Maria in ways Elsa didn't even think he was capable of. I can see her being taken totally aback by the look in his eyes alone. I think it goes back to their walk along the lakeshore when Elsa says "and what would you call me, Georg?" All he has is "lovely- charming, witty, graceful, the perfect hostess...". What he has going on with Maria is a 180 from charming, witty and graceful... |
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 15, 2023 10:28:39 GMT
wow. "smoldering in a clinch" LOL utility_singer so happy to see you here, missisa ! reverendcaptain I love the idea that G had never looked at E that way while dancing (or any other time) I really liked being reminded that Elsa is mostly hurt here. I'm thinking back on our conversation about her glances at M&G during the Edelweiss, as she begins to realize something is up ... I wonder if Elsa had just accepted that Georg was 'as he was' after Agathe died - he was a companion, someone who made her laugh, someone who she enjoyed spending time with, but she knew he could not love again. Then she stumbles upon the Laendler and it's smokin' hot, and Georg is looking at Maria in ways Elsa didn't even think he was capable of. I can see her being taken totally aback by the look in his eyes alone. I think it goes back to their walk along the lakeshore when Elsa says "and what would you call me, Georg?" All he has is "lovely- charming, witty, graceful, the perfect hostess...". What he has going on with Maria is a 180 from charming, witty and graceful... I like this idea - not that Georg shifted the object of his desires from E to M, but that E never even had seen that side of him! |
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 15, 2023 22:27:52 GMT
No, he goes from being skittish, evasive and puzzling with Elsa to emotionally deep, intense and committed with Maria at the end of the Laendler.
Not surprising Elsa was thrown! She was remarkably civil, considering how taken aback she must have been. Imagine her turmoil at seeing them, and also in wondering how on earth she should relate to Georg now? All exacerbated by how she had previously thought of Maria as 'off limits' because she was a nun.
Should she pretend it had never happened? As it was, she presumably decided to drive on right through it. Tough call!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 27, 2023 1:34:37 GMT
I always thought Elsa went too easy on Georg during their walk back into the ballroom. The "seemed rather warm to me" and "you thought you wouldn't find a friend at the party" were so passive aggressive. Though, maybe she just couldn't afford making a scene during the party, and planned to directly address this situation the following day, once prying eyes and ears were safely out of the villa?
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Post by Chris&Byng on Apr 28, 2023 0:54:16 GMT
I always thought Elsa went too easy on Georg during their walk back into the ballroom. The "seemed rather warm to me" and "you thought you wouldn't find a friend at the party" were so passive aggressive. Though, maybe she just couldn't afford making a scene during the party, and planned to directly address this situation the following day, once prying eyes and ears were safely out of the villa? I agree - she has shown this side of her before in the movie. "Baroness Machiavelli" is smiling at the children one minute, then talking about sending the kids to Boarding School. Can't forget the "geez, forgot my damn harmonica" line, either. She is very passive aggressive by nature, it seems. I guess that is what makes the resolution of the love triangle all that more potent...because she isn't being a b*tch anymore haha |
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 28, 2023 23:04:19 GMT
In contrast, Maria is so honest and direct. But in fairness, at the beginning, Georg is pretty sarcastic/aggressive with her - it changes at the Apology.
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 8, 2023 9:56:08 GMT
Do you think the moment Elsa realises she has lost is on the steps after Maria says she'll stay until another governess arrives? Elsa's expression drops as she looks at Georg lingering after Maria, then her own eyes are cast down briefly. Is that the point when she throws in the towel in her own mind? After that, she seems to be firefighting on the balcony but knowing she is not putting the fire out.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 9, 2023 1:44:20 GMT
Yes. I think so. She has to be panicked at Maria's return, but has secured Georg's proposal, so the odds are in her favor. But after Georg walks away from her to chase Maria towards the house asking her to stay, Elsa has to know it's over for them.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 12, 2023 19:50:15 GMT
which raises the age-old observation of what the heck is she up to in those first few moments on the balcony? does she really think she has a chance to reverse things (a la indigoblue 's firefighting) or is she just rambling along - maybe she wants to make HIM make the first move, as he eventually does? |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 16, 2023 19:46:14 GMT
You think she knows the end is coming and is pushing him to get on with it? Interesting!
I think she is still desperately trying, but doesn't even know what to do. She's been as charming and witty and graceful as she can be, and she's dressed to the nines, and yet still she is being upstaged by an unsophisticated nun in a homemade dress.
Is her silly rambling about wiener schnitzel and toy yachts an attempt to communicate with him in a more casual way.....the way she sees Maria communicate with him? Maybe she thinks this will show Georg that she is just as fun and easy going as Maria is? And if she is just as easy to talk to, plus glamorous and rich, maybe she has a chance to steal him back?
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 26, 2023 22:20:21 GMT
I feel she has realised she has to change tack to win him back, and this is her last chance. So she starts talking about all the things she can afford to do with him to try to entice him back to her. Many of the things she mentions are pretty expensive little wheezes ( villas in the South of France, yachts in the Mediterranean etc), then it is as though she senses he isn't responding, so she goes up a gear to a trip round the world (pretty pricey in the 1930s).
She only knows it is a futile mission when he interrupts her with his 'Elsa', after which she has to acknowledge she has lost him. Pretty devastating for her, poor girl! Wonder what she told everyone back in Vienna? That he was a philanderer?
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 27, 2023 18:23:50 GMT
I love that moment when he interrupts her. E-E-Elsa! It’s almost as though he was making up his mind even as he spoke!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Nov 28, 2023 1:28:00 GMT
I feel she has realised she has to change tack to win him back, and this is her last chance. So she starts talking about all the things she can afford to do with him to try to entice him back to her. Many of the things she mentions are pretty expensive little wheezes ( villas in the South of France, yachts in the Mediterranean etc), then it is as though she senses he isn't responding, so she goes up a gear to a trip round the world (pretty pricey in the 1930s). She only knows it is a futile mission when he interrupts her with his 'Elsa', after which she has to acknowledge she has lost him. Pretty devastating for her, poor girl! Wonder what she told everyone back in Vienna? That he was a philanderer? Related to this stream of consciousness, what do you make of Elsa's comment about her trip around the world "oh Elsa, there must be some place better to go!" What do you think she meant? Like the world isn't good enough for her Georg? did she want to go to space? haha! are there attempted links to Maria and God and other worldy-ness? |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 29, 2023 22:41:02 GMT
I always thought she was trying to be funny. Going around the world encompasses everywhere. So, saying there must be some place better to go doesn’t make sense unless she’s kidding. I think it’s her trying to be witty and it coming out as frantic ramblings.
I like Indigo’s idea that she is purposefully suggesting things that cost a lot of money, knowing that she has that and Maria doesn't. Though she's not banking on Georg not needing her or her money desperately.
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 2, 2023 0:02:14 GMT
It seems to me that this tactic has probably worked for her in the past for other menfriends, so she tries it on Georg. She sounds rather bitter when she later says that she needs to find someone else who needs her or her money, like it is the ONLY thing which has worked in the past.
I think I must resurrect the Baroness Fan Club, I'm feeling rather sorry for the ol' girl!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Dec 6, 2023 22:37:36 GMT
We were talking recently about what CP would have thought about people’s reaction to Georg at SOM sing a longs. I wonder if EP ever went to a sing a long. People typically have a VERY strong reaction to the baroness. Here, we hiss every time she is on the screen. I wonder if she would have liked that she played such an awesome villain that people are so passionate about disliking Elsa.
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 7, 2023 0:51:05 GMT
I think that, in a strange way, part of the reason people are against the Baroness is because Eleanor Parker plays her with a very vulnerable and appealing side; she isn't just horrid and unlikeable at all. Think of her when we first meet her, she is playful and humerous, stylish, modest in a sense, easily hurt, tender ("Hallo, what world are you in? - or something like that), and reduced to tears on the balcony when she has lost Georg.
Maybe because she shows a human side and we might have sympathy for her at times, we are scared Georg might actually fall for HER, which increases our desire to hiss at her in the singalong?
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Post by augiesannie on Dec 11, 2023 19:16:46 GMT
That’s so insightful, indigoblue. If you think about it, if Elsa was a cardboard villainess, what would that say about Georg, who thinks he wants to marry her? We get glimpses of the tenderness and playfulness, as you say, that must have been healing for him. She is, after all, his savior. reverendcaptain, since CP didn’t want to be a leading man type, he might not have gone for all that singalong swooning, what do you think? This morning, I rewatched his little speech about being dishonest and unfair. He really does seem so sincerely regretful. (I like the way he says he was dishonest to himself as well). |
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