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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 1:27:14 GMT
I had to watch this bit about a thousand times while writing walled garden. I knew the children were all begging their father to sing for them, but I hadn't really realized that there is this moment where she says, "please," and although he strokes Gretl's cheek, there's this look between him and M and that's when he relents. It's very sweet.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 1:43:16 GMT
i remember the 'please' but not the look. i wonder what she was thinking when she asked him and handed him the guitar... not her explanation for doing it, but really deep down what did she hope would happen, what it would mean. i imagine your story is going to answer this, but... it is almost like she forgets the baroness, or forgets that she needed to mind herself a bit. i mean, it's all innocent. i'm not saying she was stupid or careless. just... she's just such an unusual person. any other woman would have been so much more self conscious with elsa around, especially when interacting with the woman's almost fiance. perhaps that is what mystifies him about her... why he said yes. it was such a bold move and yet done completely unaware.
huh, my brain is back. nice.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 1:53:14 GMT
I have always liked puzzling over how Maria deals with Elsa - I mean the fact of Elsa, not how she behaves toward Elsa. I think Maria might have seesawed a bit with days of "I'm going to be a nun and she's going to be their mother and I'm going to make it work" and other days of "He is really someone special and she is not the right person for this family and do I dare to dream . . . " and maybe some other variations, too. Not a straight journey from A to B. In the story I feel like she does go back and forth a bit - she is attracted to him, and getting deeper and deeper with the children, but she also feels guilty, or simply unworthy, when she daydreams about him ("who am I kidding?") , and then redoubles her efforts to get him to hurry up and marry Elsa. It's like she says to the RM "I didn't want to believe it." Because it certainly is complicated. I remember reading that young children, or girls anyway, start developmentally by getting crushes on men/boys who are unavailable and unthreatening (like pop stars in boy bands). I don't know if that's true these days, kids are more sophisticated. But maybe in the beginning that's the kind of crush she has on him - he's a safely unattainable hero. And then she starts to wish for more, and . . . so does he. <3
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 2:07:49 GMT
that is an interesting point to ponder, about crushing on the unattainable. for maria it may have started out just as, "well, i'm going to be a nun, but if things WERE different, he certainly possesses many of the qualities i would find most desirable in a man." that's a pretty safe way let your mind indulge and admit things to yourself by putting a qualification at the beginning. like, "i would NEVER cheat on my husband, but if i did..." may also explain the way we've been treating poor CP like a piece of meat around here. poor man.
elsa was quite a presence, IMO. i can totally see maria getting that "who am i kidding" sense of doubt. just know that if she were to throw her hat in the ring, so to speak, the competition would tip heavily in elsa's favor (so she thinks). then elsa pulls that couldn't-keep-his-eyes-off-you stunt and whoa... no wonder she ran away.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 2:12:58 GMT
I love this line of thinking. In a way, Elsa is what makes him a safe crush. There are some other ways in which Maria's thinking about him evolves in WG, but you'll have to wait and see about this. It's very lemacd. we really need to have a whole thread about the so-called bedroom scene. Perhaps I'll start that. Or perhaps I'll go to sleep.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 2:14:28 GMT
haha, you've said that. i can't wait to read me.
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 20, 2013 2:15:40 GMT
I think I mentioned in another conversation around here that he indeed agrees to sing for Maria, not the children. In a way, I think he is trying to thank her for bringing music back into the house. Then of course, they get all tangled up in the Mutual Admiration and Sexual Tension Society meeting, and well, here we are And not for nothing, I don't think CP would mind being thought of or talked about in the way we do. Quote from an interview:
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 2:18:53 GMT
maybe not at first... but eventually, he might feel a bit used, cheap, and exhausted. just sayin'.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 2:23:48 GMT
....I think it's a rule that we get to repeat ourselves. After all, how many times have we watched the movie?
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 20, 2013 3:22:22 GMT
I've lost count. Though, the count of watching the full movie differs considerably from the number of times I've watched the Laendler, gazebo, or Edelweiss scenes.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 3:45:46 GMT
I've lost count. Though, the count of watching the full movie differs considerably from the number of times I've watched the Laendler, gazebo, or Edelweiss scenes. i know, right? i can't tell you how many times i watched the whistle scene and the rowboat confrontation when i wrote LIY. and just the part when he barges in during 'my favorite things'. it has been forever since i've just sat down and watched it from the beginning for no reason. well, no reason that has to do with writing.
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 20, 2013 23:42:49 GMT
I watched all of the film which takes place in the house when I was trying to map out the floor plans (the first time for a while), and was really struck by how GOOD it all was; I always believe that something that is poor quality gets worse each time you see it (whether it is a painting, book, piece of music, film etc), whilst something of good quality only gets better, and TSOM is definitely in this category!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 23, 2020 14:45:36 GMT
i wonder what she was thinking when she asked him and handed him the guitar... not her explanation for doing it, but really deep down what did she hope would happen, what it would mean. i imagine your story is going to answer this, but... it is almost like she forgets the baroness, or forgets that she needed to mind herself a bit. i mean, it's all innocent. i'm not saying she was stupid or careless. just... she's just such an unusual person. any other woman would have been so much more self conscious with elsa around, especially when interacting with the woman's almost fiance. perhaps that is what mystifies him about her... why he said yes. it was such a bold move and yet done completely unaware. I know this quote is from forever ago, but it just strikes me as so true. Georg probably doesn't know anyone (peer or employee) that doesn't understand and follow the rules of society. Then in comes this person who seems completely oblivious to it all. The children want their father to sing, so she just thinks, I'll go ask him. She doesn't stop to consider at all that it isn't her place to interrupt him or that she should never be so direct with a man with his girlfriend looking on. Georg is taken back by the request. Elsa is looking like, you can't be serious. And Maria is all, this is great! The children will love it! Max is the only one laughing, and if you think about it, it really is funny looking at it from each person's perspective.
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 27, 2020 0:29:47 GMT
One of Maria's charms is that she lacks guile, but it does mean she is direct in her manner (which we see here). I feel, as long as it is done from a kind heart, children respond well to it
Perhaps Georg has been surrounded by people all his life who have had ulterior motives (like getting his house, favour, interest etc), so Maria with her sincerity blows in and captivates him. Kaboom!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 20, 2022 20:38:47 GMT
So, how much of him agreeing to this song is for the children versus for Maria? He is so involved with his children at this point, and maybe Liesl mentioning that she remembers him singing brings him back to happy memories from before his life changed, and he wants his other children to have those memories too. But at least some of it is Maria too. I just can't decide on a percentage. They are clearly friends and basically co-parents at this point. I don't think he would have given in if it weren't her pushing him.
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 20, 2022 23:18:32 GMT
Yes, some of both for sure. Plus, it's probably been years since he played ("a very very long time ago") and I bet his feelings are also see sawing between being reluctant and being ready to try.
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 21, 2022 0:40:46 GMT
In a way, to sing Edelweiss was an acknowledgement to all in the room who knew, that it had been wrong of him to ban music in the house.
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Post by missisa on Feb 8, 2022 11:44:33 GMT
This makes me think that for Georg there is also a grieving process that must have been hard and painful. That is to say, although now the music is back into the house and he begins to leave behind the impertinent authority, we forget too quickly what George must have suffered with the loss of a beloved wife and the mother of his 7 children. We can't pretend that he picked up the guitar at the first chance. Poor Captain.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 8, 2022 23:49:27 GMT
It has just occurred to me that the fact that Maria is a nun has meant that she is 'off-limits', effectively asexual, in both the Captain's and Elsa's eyes since she/they arrived at the villa, so she would have been allowed to 'intrude' more into their presence exactly because she was not considered a threat.
Hence Maria is enthusiastic in asking him to play/sing something, and he obliges (he might not have done so if he thought there was rivalry between M and E, for fear of upsetting them both). So he agrees to sing, but something happens when he sings which, for the first time, means he sees her as anything but asexual...and Elsa realises this too.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 10, 2022 20:38:24 GMT
Yes, I think Maria is not a threat both because she is a nun, and also because she is so clueless as to the ways of society. You can't really be angry at someone for intruding when they don't know any better, and are just trying to do something nice for the children. This may even make her seem all the less of a threat to Elsa because Maria is so hopelessly unsophisticated.
But yet there is something about her, something that makes Georg listen to her instead of firmly reminding her of her station before turning his attention back to his guests. This is such an important scene!
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 20, 2022 19:41:46 GMT
So, do you think that Maria's response to the Captain singing in Edelweiss is the point at which he fell for her? If we consider reverendcaptain 's idea above to be the case up to when he sang Edelweiss, then when he saw her clearly adoring his singing, was this the point at which they 'clicked'? I've always felt that he started off with the song in quite a bluff way, but each time he looked at her, he seemed to be more bewitched. Maybe if he already had had ideas about her, but had denied them to himself because he thought they were improper, or wouldn't be reciprocated, then seeing her relishing his attention might have suddenly opened the floodgates for him.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 22, 2022 0:11:58 GMT
Well, you know me, I always think Georg is in denial until the last possible moment. But yes, I agree that there is a slow progression, from The Apology, to the whole puppet show/Edelweiss evening, when he obviously cares what she thinks and is showing off a bit for her, and probably enjoying her response, to the Laendler, but I think he is probably fighting it or trying to explain it away all along. After all he thinks she’s going back to the Abbey! I can imagine him taking a long walk after the Edelweiss - maybe Maria’s watching him from the window in that deleted scene picture - thinking to himself, “what just happened?!”
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Post by missisa on Feb 22, 2022 15:17:45 GMT
Well, you know me, I always think Georg is in denial until the last possible moment.” 😂😂😂😂😂😂 omg loved this, totally agree. That remind me of the lines: "you did? You ARE?"
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 24, 2022 22:07:48 GMT
So, do you think that Maria's response to the Captain singing in Edelweiss is the point at which he fell for her? If we consider reverendcaptain 's idea above to be the case up to when he sang Edelweiss, then when he saw her clearly adoring his singing, was this the point at which they 'clicked'? I've always felt that he started off with the song in quite a bluff way, but each time he looked at her, he seemed to be more bewitched. Maybe if he already had had ideas about her, but had denied them to himself because he thought they were improper, or wouldn't be reciprocated, then seeing her relishing his attention might have suddenly opened the floodgates for him. Well, it depends on what "fell for her" means exactly. I think they were both thinking that the other is absolutely amazing starting at this point. Maria had him enchanted with the puppet show, but that could easily be explained away in his mind as him enjoying the children enjoying themselves. Edelweiss was a connection just between the two of them (even though everyone else is in the room watching on). He was singing to her, and she was smiling back at him. There is no way to explain this away. I think they are falling for each other, yes, but would deny it if it were suggested to them. They can both easily brush off their daydreams as harmless because the other is not available, while secretly they find each other attractive on many levels. The deleted scene would then be Maria gazing out thinking - wow, he is so wonderful (no hint of guilt here, as she is not admitting that she is falling in love with him, just that he is amazing). Where as, he is much more experienced and would be walking by the lake thinking - omg, what am I doing? Why do I keep finding myself flirting with this person who is so off limits? And why does it feel so right when I'm doing it? I agree that this is too deep for this point in the movie, and that it was smart to delete it. The Laendler is the "fall in love" moment for me, and it would have been muddled if too much was revealed before that point.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 8, 2022 0:04:16 GMT
agree reverendcaptain - you nailed it with this sentence: They can both easily brush off their daydreams as harmless because the other is not available, while secretly they find each other attractive on many levels.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 1, 2022 19:03:42 GMT
What do you make of Georg's "Me? I don't understand" response to Maria's "The vote is unanimous"? Did he really not understand that her holding a guitar out to him meant that she wanted him to play? Was he lost in her eyes and answering on autopilot? Was he hoping that playing dumb would make her ask someone else?
Also, when do you think the children started telling Maria stories about their father from before their mother's death? At the mountain picnic, they tell Maria that they don't know any song and don't know how to sing. Then somewhere between the picnic and Edelweiss, she now knows that a long time ago the captain was quite good at guitar. I'm just trying to picture the scenario when the children (probably Liesl) trust Maria enough to start in with the "I didn't used to be like this fraulein. We used to sing all the time with our parents. Father was so good at playing guitar while mother sang" kind of stories.
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Post by missisa on Sept 1, 2022 20:40:42 GMT
That "Me? I don't understand" is a bit awkward. I get the impression that Georg is uncomfortable having the governess, whom he recently gave curt orders to, as one more member of the family with Elsa watching so closely (and right after the ecstasy of the puppet show, which Georg may think he had been too impulsive in his congratulations)
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 2, 2022 22:40:29 GMT
It's a bit difficult for Georg because he has said 'No music in the house', which presumably both Elsa and Max also know.
So he has to decline Maria's request to be consistent with his own rules. "Me? I don't understand" is a way of saying 'No' to Maria without being too direct, but as usual she doesn't take 'No' for an answer!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 2, 2023 20:40:17 GMT
There's a smile I want to discuss, and it turns out the screencap is in the first post of this thread (from a decade ago. lol)
Ok. He doesn't want to play the guitar, he's walking away, the children convince him, he makes eye contact with Maria, he nods and takes the guitar, and then he makes eye contact with Maria again. Only this time, her smile blossoms with excitement and he can't help but return it. It's a look I often miss because it is so fast, but I think it is important. It is reminiscent of "I really am very very much impressed/They're your children captain" in that they are facing each other, smiling, admiring each other, and seemingly oblivious to not being alone in the room.
I feel like she is excited that he is crossing this hurdle. He has already allowed his children to bring music back into the house, but he hasn't brought it back into his own life yet. I think she thinks this will be healing for him (and it is). I also think that she is interested in hearing him sing. She's curious about him and what lies beneath his authoritative facade.
Do you know what smile I'm talking about?
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 3, 2023 11:59:33 GMT
I know exactly what smile you're talking about, and I agree 100%. He seems almost shy about taking it, and as the song goes on it is obvious he is seeking her approval.
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