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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 2:17:35 GMT
I should really have a photo to start us off, but it's late and I have to get to bed.
A few things about this scene and I'm sure you can add more:
1. IMHO Elsa looks a little suprised when Maria says, "then I must leave, I can't stay here." I don't think Elsa really intended to drive her away completely, just scare her. 2. I've always thought, and written it this way, that there's the implication that his interest in Maria is not honorable, that's part of why she's so horrified. It's not, "He's in love with you and wants to marry you." Sorry if this is obvious. 3. Maria says, "Baroness, I hope you're joking," but I think Maria KNOWS that there's been something in the air between her and G.
Lots of other stuff, jump in!
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 20, 2013 2:26:37 GMT
I'll start by addressing these three points you've brought up:
1) I think she is surprised, but not unpleasantly. IMO, Elsa never thought she'd leave because she was sent by the abbey, and figured she didn't have a choice. So she didn't intend to drive her away, it wasn't an unwelcome development.
2) I think Maria is more embarrassed than horrified, a little bit scared, too. The way she tells the Rev. Mother that if she let him know how she felt 'I didn't know that I did' indicates she is afraid she somehow enticed him to thinking of her 'that way'. And embarrassed certainly that the Fiancee is the one that noticed their attraction.
3) Maria realizes how she feels for sure; but I think she is just naive enough to never imagine that Georg felt anything for her--especially next to Elsa. That unattainable ideal, the 'safe' crush, and all that. It would be scary as hell to find out that the guy you've been crushing on is crushing back on you.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 2:29:53 GMT
here's a picture for more inspiration!
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 2:52:55 GMT
i'll give it a whirl and try not to sound exactly like the two of you.
1. i always thought that she seemed surprised that her little plan worked. like it was almost too easy. not only that, but maria seems grateful to her for it. i'm sure if it had been any other woman that elsa was trying to manipulate, there would have been claws. and to top it off, maria asks her for a favor. i mean, elsa has to be wondering at this point, "who is this chick and does she come in male, size 6' tall... no wonder geeorg is so gaga."
2. i agree. spoken: "he thinks he's in love with you..." unspoken: "he's really in lust with you." this is what i have always loved about old movie (one of many things, actually). there is so much in between the lines and words. elsa doesn't come right out and say, "where is that dress that the captain clearly wants to tear off you whenever you wear it?" or "i saw you dancing with him... getting all up in it with him, turning all red and $#!&... you slut." how unimaginative. ok, i was extreme. elsa wasn't calling maria a slut. just gently hinting that she was walking a fine line.
3. i like utility's answer so i'm going to just copy off her paper.
do you think elsa really thought that dress was appropriate or just a good way to make her point? if you were elsa, would you seriously suggest maria wear something your boyfriend finds so captivating? "here put this on. it will drive my guy crazy and maybe i can cash in on it after the party."?? hmmm... elsa is such a riddle.
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 20, 2013 2:59:01 GMT
I think telling her to wear the blue dress was just a way to bring up the subject. She was probably more than ready to engage in actual combat with Maria. Then Maria basically rolled over and played dead, and Elsa never had to get her hands dirty.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 3:03:24 GMT
Agree with utility's #3 - in the current story I am definitely feeling that Maria doesn't really get to the bottom of things, well of her heart, for quite a while.
As for the dress - this is complicated. NONE of Maria's dresses are what Elsa would consider a threat. I always thought it was a tiny bit tongue in cheek. Yes, that was the dress Maria was wearing when M&G exchange some Looks, but I don't think it was the dress that enchanted him -- it's a pretty but simple dress, the sleeves thing notwithstanding. (and also it's kind of funny, because the Gazebo dress isn't that much fancier than the Laendler dress, why would she change from one to the other?)
I think Elsa means "well, you only HAVE three dresses, how about the one you were wearing when the two of you were staring at each other like the rest of us had gone upstairs to bed?"
Maria certainly didn't have anything fancier (and what's up with him saying, "we'll wait for you, you can change?" I guess he's a clueless male A zillion people are going to wait for her to change and he knows she makes all her clothes, does he think she has a ball gown up there? But I digress.)
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 20, 2013 3:12:34 GMT
Hmm- I think he said that to throw Elsa off the scent, after her pointed remarks about them dancing, and him 'finding a friend', and how warm it was out there. Similar to the way he said, "you can if you want to Fraulein"---he wasn't about to start THAT conversation with Elsa in the middle of the ball.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 3:15:08 GMT
Yes, that "you can if you want to" is one of my favorite -- well, in a bad way -- lines in the film. Before I found all of you, I obsessed about it constantly. I think I finally put it to bed. Just Georg trying to stay in control.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 3:42:38 GMT
that would have been hilarious "you can if you want to... go upstairs and whip yourself up a little ball gown with the bathroom shower curtain. we'll wait."
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 21:51:19 GMT
i think one of the things i appreciate about lisa's story today was that she gave us something to think about re: what happened at the villa while maria was running away. i've always just assumed georg figured she changed her mind and didn't give it another thought. max probably did the elsa math when maria didn't show. and that the note wasn't discovered until the next day. the idea that he went to her room to see what was happening with her is not that new, but certainly suddenly opened my mind to some fun (not that kind of fun, the angsty kind).
i had something else to contribute to this thread but can't remember what it was. i'm sure it was brilliant. but now we'll never know for sure.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2013 23:22:28 GMT
C'mon back when you remember it, girl. I also liked that about Lisa's story. I personally don't buy the stories where he is instantly broken hearted and bereft and realizes he wants to marry her. I thought it was realistic to say he was initially puzzled and then started to think through the impact of her departure and his true feelings for her.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 20, 2013 23:27:54 GMT
yes, the man in control started to crack just a little. and still can't remember. which makes me think it wasn't that brilliant after all. oh, well...
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 20, 2013 23:56:37 GMT
I think the Stiff Upper Lip control comes in when Maria disappears, resulting in him refocusing his life after that misfortune, and the engagement is the result not long after.
Just to complicate the issue, I seem to remember people saying that on the BluRay edition, you can clearly see tears in Elsa's eyes and even on her cheeks in the bedroom scene! WHAT?! Where does that fit in?!
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Post by lemacd on Nov 21, 2013 0:04:32 GMT
hmmm... interesting. maybe she feels guilty? she seems a bit choked up when maria asks her not to say anything and she says she wouldn't dream of it and when she tells maria she thinks she'll be a very good nun.
maybe she is suddenly very afraid that she just condemned her eternal soul by messing with a nun. ok, probably not that.
perhaps after all is said and done, she realizes the only person she is fooling is herself. maria and georg are meant for each other and that a whole mess of hurt is on the horizon. it doesn't really mesh with how she behaves when she returns to the ball, but... every one is capable of momentary self-awareness, i suppose.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 21, 2013 1:00:01 GMT
right, and also, although on the one hand, there is the boarding school moment with Max, on the other hand, she's ill at ease and uncertain when G tells the children they're engaged. So there are moments when she's full of bravado and others where her self-confidence falters. What a difficult position to be in. I'll be interested to see what others spot on the blu-ray - I can't check it out tonight - but this also reminded me of how on the balcony, when she is prattling on about the wedding gift and the honeymoon and he says, ""it's no use," her eyes instantly fill with tears. She must have some set of faucets back there, boy.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 21, 2013 1:26:34 GMT
have you ever seen EP in any of her other movies? that woman could have a breakdown like no other. the reason i'm a lifetime member of TBF is because of the restraint she managed playing elsa... with faucets!
i think my fave is 'detective story'. i mean, other that TSOM.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 21, 2013 1:45:48 GMT
you aren't kidding!
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Post by lemacd on Nov 21, 2013 1:55:38 GMT
YES! and that doesn't even show the part that probably got her nominated for an oscar. so good. i recommend. if you like cop dramas where women cry a lot.
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 21, 2013 3:20:16 GMT
I've watched the Blu Ray and never noticed any tears in Elsa's eyes, cheeks, or anywhere else. I will have to take another look.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 21, 2013 12:35:56 GMT
oboy, am I with my people.
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 21, 2013 13:04:27 GMT
Going back to her uncertainty when he's telling the children of their engagement----I think she knows by then that this will be make-or-break time for her. She knows how they are grieving Maria's departure; she must be aware of Georg's disappointment (his face when he hears them singing so sadly? who could miss that?); and his newfound relationship with the kids. I think in a way she realizes she's on borrowed time by that point. That's why when Maria returns, Elsa flies out of the house almost as soon as the children have gotten in there, why she grabs his arm and stands between him and Maria so possessively, and why she wears that red sparkly number to dinner.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 21, 2013 13:05:36 GMT
yes. isn't it such a nice feeling?
said in response to augiesannie. in case it confused anyone.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 21, 2013 13:13:13 GMT
and i think the way the children reacted, the way G had to prompt them to welcome her, etc sparked the dawning that things might not end well. at this point, though, she must have realized that the happiness she envisioned was not going to happen, boarding school or no boarding school. but she held on because she loved him. i know her graceful exit was mostly to save face, but it was pretty noble, too. oh, elsa. dry those big 'ol tears can find another fella. you deserve it.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 21, 2013 13:20:17 GMT
Love what utility says about that awkward scene on the terrace. And maybe I overread (who, me?) But I think the way Elsa says "thank you dear" to Maria's congratulations has the slightest apologeti tinge to it.
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Post by lemacd on Nov 21, 2013 13:24:42 GMT
yes, very sincere. maybe she is not saying thank you about the congratulations, but because she isn't ratting her out to G about the way she chased maria away. elsa had to know she didn't stand a chance. she was probably falling in love with maria at this point, too.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 21, 2013 13:32:10 GMT
*apologetic tinge to it* sorry on train!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 16:39:59 GMT
What always stands out to me in that scene is when Elsa says to Maria, "He'll get over it soon enough, I would think. Men do, you know." Its just such a cold thing to say to her! It really drives the point home, in my opinion, to have the worldly Baroness tell the young would-be-nun a thing like that. It's like its Elsa's way of saying "You really don't have anything in common. Take your little dance and song and go on with yourself." Original Ice Queen, that one.
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Post by lemacd on Feb 19, 2014 19:48:15 GMT
it is rather cold... not only "you have nothing in common, you'd bore him in no time" but "don't challenge ME when it comes to me, maria. i know men." i don't think she had to be that mean, though. just bringing up the subject of feelings seemed to make maria a hot mess.
back to the dress, if i may... i think when elsa called the blue/green/whatever dress the one he couldn't keep his eyes off, she was alluding to the edelweiss scene. it was more about that moment than the dress. just a thought.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 19, 2014 20:13:04 GMT
Yes, only using the subject of the dress to bring up the "other topic". I don't think she would have come right out with it and said "hands off my man!" (And wouldn't we all like to get our hands on that man!), Elsa is much more subtle than that!
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Post by paula on Feb 19, 2014 20:16:27 GMT
(And wouldn't we all like to get our hands on that man!) Yes, we would!!!!
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