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Post by indigoblue on Oct 25, 2022 14:35:23 GMT
I think a lot of it is displaced anger! But if you put yourself in Elsa's shoes, you can see that she has no idea how long the 'relationship' has been going on, nor the extent of it. I'd be angry too!
Elsa arrives at the villa assuming Georg would propose, presumably having been told only that the children are looked after by a governess who is a postulant.
Then it becomes increasingly obvious to her there is something sexual between G and M, particularly during Edelweiss - but Elsa may also think this has been going on a long time...and to what extent? Are G&M 'an item', so to speak? What exactly has been happening? Not only that, but will it continue if Georg proposes to Elsa? Very disorientating for Elsa, so far from home, and not what she thought would happen in sleepy Salzburg! And there's no-one she can ask - Max doesn't seem to offer any 'in house information'; we know it is a simple romance between G&M, but Elsa doesn't - and she is a woman of the world.
So with Georg brushing her off, Elsa's only weapon is to get rid of Maria even though she is not the protagonist...but maybe Elsa thinks she is...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Oct 27, 2022 19:42:26 GMT
How involved does Elsa think Georg and Maria actually are? That's a good question!
Since we, the audience, know that all of these shared looks and informal conversation are the innocent beginning of G&M's relationship, I kind of always imagined that Elsa did too. But that even this was far to inappropriate for her liking. I'm sure she knew that Maria was a new governess that arrived just before Georg left for Vienna. So that would mean that any relationship between the two had been forged while she was at the villa. Did she think Georg was the type of person who would be sleeping with the help while entertaining his future wife?! Did she think he was in love with Maria (so even worse than just fooling around with the help)? Talk about pealing madly but not necessarily for her!
It also kind of highlights the differences in the two women's ability to communicate with Georg. When Maria thinks he's being unreasonable, she just directly says it (or shouts it, if necessary). Elsa can't even have an open enough discussion with the man she wants to marry to ask him if he's sleeping around on her.
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Post by indigoblue on Oct 27, 2022 23:16:09 GMT
Hmm, I'm not so sure that Georg would have told her that the governess had arrived less than a day before he left for Vienna...he may have been a little embarrassed that Maria had been there such a short time before he legged it. At the very least it gives the impression that he might be disorganised, or that he couldn't find one or - God forbid - the von Trapp reputation was so bad that no-one wanted to come! And at worst, it might suggest (surely not?) that he is a Bad Parent. Not a good look to reveal to a prospective wife and mother!
Thus Elsa may well be under the illusion that Maria was very well-ensconced in the von Trapp household...too well-ensconced...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 20, 2023 20:42:11 GMT
"You know, you blushed in his arms when you were dancing just now" is said with kind of an accusatory tone, don't you think? And it is stated as solid proof of Georg's love. Why? Because it shows that she's in love with him (and nothing is more irresistible than that), otherwise she wouldn't have been so embarrassed at the end of the dance?
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 23, 2023 22:58:17 GMT
Is that why she holds her two hands up to her face at the end of the Laendler, to hide her blushes?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 26, 2023 19:37:12 GMT
Yes, I think so. Elsa clearly saw that Maria was embarrassed, and used it to her own advantage. I just think it's interesting that is presented as evidence that Georg is in love with her.
E: What makes it so nice is, he thinks he's in love with you. M: But that's not true. E: Surely you've noticed the way he looks into your eyes. And you know, you blushed in his arms when you were dancing just now.
Or maybe the blushing part is supposed confirm that Maria is in love with Georg, which therefore makes her irresistible to him. So, basically, this is all Maria's fault.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 25, 2023 0:06:29 GMT
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 26, 2023 22:05:34 GMT
Well-spotted! One thing I noticed is that the room is very smart for a governess (including the improvements which were made)...normally a governess would be put into a very small, modest room for the staff. I can see that this would not work for the film, which is why they gave her a large double bed for the Thunderstorm scene, but this is more like a spare room they would keep for house guests. Bearing in mind they had had 11 governesses already, you would have thought they would have already sorted out a small room for her in the staff quarters!
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 27, 2023 18:20:06 GMT
Well-spotted! One thing I noticed is that the room is very smart for a governess (including the improvements which we were made)...normally a governess would be put into a very small, modest room for the staff. I can see that this would not work for the film, which is why they gave her a large double bed for the Thunderstorm scene, but this is more like a spare room they would keep for house guests. Bearing in mind they had had 11 governesses already, you would have thought they would have already sorted out a small room for her in the staff quarters! Good eye reverendcaptain! indigoblue, or maybe a governess has a slightly more elevated status in the household? Like, she dined with them and I didn’t see any other staff there???
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Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 29, 2023 22:55:26 GMT
She did seem to have elevated status. I always wondered how she got the money to take the kids to the market and go on carriage rides. I wouldn’t think just any staff member would have access to household money, but she seemed to. As for dinner, maybe the governess wasn’t so much invited to dine with them as she was necessary when Marta and Gretl were younger and needed to be fed, and the tradition just continued. As for the bedroom, I think your floor plans showed that Maria’s room was bigger than Elsa’s, didn’t they, Indigo? There has to be a story about this too. Maybe one of the previous governesses demanded better accommodations since she had to deal with the children’s antics, or she’d quit? The governess got the best room on that side of the house so the captain didn’t have to cancel his trip to Vienna, but then Fraulein Helga ended up quitting anyway?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 5, 2024 15:37:01 GMT
What exactly makes Maria decide to leave here?
She's clearly embarrassed by it being pointed out that she is in love with the captain. Is that what does it? That she finally realizes that these feelings are love and not just a close working relationship with her employer? And she's not supposed to be in love with him. She's supposed to be readying the children for their new mother, Baroness Schraeder. So, she needs to get out of the way so the children can get their mother?
It always bothers me how casually Elsa is speaking about her man being in love with someone else. Does Maria's realization that people in this high society world have flings and no one cares impact her decision to leave? How could she ever be with a man that could be off with another any time he was tempted to do so? Or did she know Georg was better than this? RM called him fine and brave. Though maybe RM wouldn't know the inner workings of the elite social circle and their lack of morals.
Thoughts on exactly what put her over the edge?
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 15, 2024 0:39:43 GMT
I think the realisation that she was out of her depth would have been enough to make her go; perhaps before, she felt things were sort-of under control, but this revelation (that the Captain considers her a trivial plaything) makes her realise that she is in a far more 'sophisticated' group of people, who had very different values to her, and this would have been enough to make her realise she had misjudged things.
Also maybe she begins to feel that she would be blamed for being 'loose', one of the Captain's women. So retreating to the Abbey would be a way of extricating herself from this image. She had very little on which to make a judgement, because Georg plays his cards so close to his chest right up until the end in the gazebo!
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 16, 2024 15:04:27 GMT
You both said it so well. Plus she might be feeling guilty about abandoning her vocation. “To have asked for his love would have been wrong!” indigoblue reverendcaptain
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 11, 2024 19:48:29 GMT
I know we've been over this ground before, but I can't help but bring it up again because I go back and forth on it.
Does Maria know that she's in love with the captain when Elsa points it out to her? Her repeating back "In love with him" is a little unreadable. Is she embarrassed that Elsa knows about her secret crush, or is this the first time that she has considered that the feelings she has for him are actually love and not just admiration/respect/friendship?
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Post by goldenbeauty on Mar 12, 2024 4:30:27 GMT
I think she might have some feeling she does especially after her reaction to how intense the Laendler got. But still trying to deny the feelings, and runaway from them.
Something I do appreciate about this movie is there really is no guilty party IMHO in this short lived "love triangle". There's no affair going on behind Elsa's back, and Elsa isn't outright vindictive and evil. Which is refreshing cause I've seen so much of that. A bit manipulative? Sure, but it's understandable. And perhaps she really should have questioned Georg about it, instead of Maria, but I imagine it's easier to subtly confront Maria about it vs. the man she loves, cause it would be awful to hear what she feared.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 15, 2024 0:05:39 GMT
I think she might have some feeling she does especially after her reaction to how intense the Laendler got. But still trying to deny the feelings, and runaway from them. Something I do appreciate about this movie is there really is no guilty party IMHO in this short lived "love triangle". There's no affair going on behind Elsa's back, and Elsa isn't outright vindictive and evil. Which is refreshing cause I've seen so much of that. A bit manipulative? Sure, but it's understandable. And perhaps she really should have questioned Georg about it, instead of Maria, but I imagine it's easier to subtly confront Maria about it vs. the man she loves, cause it would be awful to hear what she feared. So goldenbeauty what’s your opinion about Elsa’s intent? I always thought that she only intended to warn Maria off (while she knows Maria jokes about her prospects as a nun, she IS a postulant) and if I recall correctly, Elsa looks a little surprised and even rattled at first, when Maria announces that she’s going to leave. (She’s recovered her composure by the time she leaves the room).
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 1, 2024 23:54:48 GMT
I think Elsa only hoped to warn Maria off, and so when it became apparent her rival would be leaving, she realised she had come up trumps - hence her expression!
And I think Maria knew she had a crush on Georg, but thought she had managed to conceal it from everyone else (it wouldn't be good for the kids to know, either). So Elsa making it clear that it was plain for all to see ("you blushed when you were dancing with him") must have been excruciating for her, and running away was a solution to that in so many ways.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Apr 2, 2024 0:29:58 GMT
If we rely totally on what Bob Wise has shared with us, I think the answer can be found early on with Maria's arrival at the villa when Frau Schmidt tells Maria that the Captain was thinking very seriously about marrying 'the woman' before the summer was over. Later in that same scene, Maria is praying, confirming with God that she knew why she was sent there - to prepare the children for a new mother. Then, weeks later in her own bedroom, Maria is confronted by 'said woman/new mother' and is faced with the knowledge that she has essentially/inadvertently stolen "her man" out from under her nose. Thus, my head cannon says she is embarrassed to realize that not only were her feelings for the Captain that obvious, but also because she knew it was morally wrong to take what was never intended to be hers (i.e. "to ask for his love would have been wrong"). I don't feel that Maria ever believed that feelings for the Captain were wrong, but they were just misunderstood and misplaced. The safest way to deal with this knowledge, coupled with the fact that she is, indeed, in love with him, is to run away. Maria has never been scared of Georg, ever, but this feeling is scary (so, she's a lot like Georg in a way - running from her feelings) and she knows she has overstepped. From a Catholic perspective, it's also morally wrong to steal something that wasn't yours, but she knows she can't face him anymore knowing what she knows. I think (there's a lot of thinking tonight!) that it would be so easy to fall in love with Georg/have a big-time crush on the man for so many reasons, especially as he transitions back to being a family man who sings Edelweiss in the drawing room (to quote reverendcaptain *thud*). Realistically, however, he is so unattainable for someone like Maria. I find there's a bit of comfort in the knowledge that "it won't matter" because he's up on the top of the ladder and she is way down at the bottom. Speaking from experience, when there is a relationship that is "something so completely impossible", it often means some of the walls we might build as we enter a relationship aren't there because you don't feel they are necessary. You might laugh a little longer, stand a little too close (sounds like a song, doesn't it? LOL). In these situations, it's definitely perceived as a platonic love - respect for the other person and support for that person, but never anticipating it would ever move beyond that. You know that for your soul in that moment that platonic love in itself is a gift. However, Elsa essentially confirms for Maria that it's all obviously moved beyond friendship for both her and Georg, and Maria is mortified to know she has over-stepped her place. Imagine being faced with the realization that all those things you thought were 'strictly friendship' were not - and you see them now for what they really were. It's a joyous realization, but it's absolutely soul-crushing to find out in this moment.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 3, 2024 23:34:23 GMT
Well put! I can see Maria having an enormous crush on Georg, and allowing herself to keep it self-contained enough to enjoy him from a distance, then perhaps enjoying a little shared joke when discussing the kids, thinking he had not noticed (but maybe laughing a little too much, blushing etc). And while no-one knew, it wasn't important...until Elsa did.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 18, 2024 19:33:53 GMT
If we rely totally on what Bob Wise has shared with us, I think the answer can be found early on with Maria's arrival at the villa when Frau Schmidt tells Maria that the Captain was thinking very seriously about marrying 'the woman' before the summer was over. Later in that same scene, Maria is praying, confirming with God that she knew why she was sent there - to prepare the children for a new mother. Then, weeks later in her own bedroom, Maria is confronted by 'said woman/new mother' and is faced with the knowledge that she has essentially/inadvertently stolen "her man" out from under her nose. Thus, my head cannon says she is embarrassed to realize that not only were her feelings for the Captain that obvious, but also because she knew it was morally wrong to take what was never intended to be hers (i.e. "to ask for his love would have been wrong"). I don't feel that Maria ever believed that feelings for the Captain were wrong, but they were just misunderstood and misplaced. The safest way to deal with this knowledge, coupled with the fact that she is, indeed, in love with him, is to run away. Maria has never been scared of Georg, ever, but this feeling is scary (so, she's a lot like Georg in a way - running from her feelings) and she knows she has overstepped. From a Catholic perspective, it's also morally wrong to steal something that wasn't yours, but she knows she can't face him anymore knowing what she knows. I think (there's a lot of thinking tonight!) that it would be so easy to fall in love with Georg/have a big-time crush on the man for so many reasons, especially as he transitions back to being a family man who sings Edelweiss in the drawing room (to quote reverendcaptain *thud*). Realistically, however, he is so unattainable for someone like Maria. I find there's a bit of comfort in the knowledge that "it won't matter" because he's up on the top of the ladder and she is way down at the bottom. Speaking from experience, when there is a relationship that is "something so completely impossible", it often means some of the walls we might build as we enter a relationship aren't there because you don't feel they are necessary. You might laugh a little longer, stand a little too close (sounds like a song, doesn't it? LOL). In these situations, it's definitely perceived as a platonic love - respect for the other person and support for that person, but never anticipating it would ever move beyond that. You know that for your soul in that moment that platonic love in itself is a gift. However, Elsa essentially confirms for Maria that it's all obviously moved beyond friendship for both her and Georg, and Maria is mortified to know she has over-stepped her place. Imagine being faced with the realization that all those things you thought were 'strictly friendship' were not - and you see them now for what they really were. It's a joyous realization, but it's absolutely soul-crushing to find out in this moment. "To have asked for his love would have been wrong" has always bothered me a little. It's kind of a strange thing to say. I like how you have viewed it through the lens of Catholic guilt for wanting what isn't hers. Good observation. This also makes her running logical. If it's her "sin" that is getting in the way of God's errand, she needs to get out of there. Now. I completely agree on certain boundaries being unnecessary in a relationship with an unattainable person. This worked to her advantage here because he was allowed to see her true personality and not just some always agreeable staff member.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 21, 2024 0:11:04 GMT
Do you think "to ask for his love would have been wrong" meant she had no place asking that because Elsa was his partner, not her?
I agree that if you are in a situation where you adore someone but they are 'off limits' like Georg is for her, then you can relax and enjoy that feeling, maybe even let your feelings run riot as you know they will be unreturned. It also means you don't have to confront other issues which arise if the other person declares their love for you (especially if a partner like Elsa is around), like how do you conduct your relationship? What do you do about Elsa? Do you tell the kids? How far do you let it go (a kiss? further? etc).
So I can see that to realise the cat is out of the bag (when Elsa tells her the Captain is 'aware' of her), suddenly presents her with all sorts of dilemmas which she may not have either anticipated nor experienced before, and ones with which a nun should not have to trouble herself.
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 1, 2024 19:49:10 GMT
Do you think "to ask for his love would have been wrong" meant she had no place asking that because Elsa was his partner, not her? Yes. Elsa is the captain's love, not her. To have asked for his love/let her feelings be known was messing up the whole reason God sent her there. Sinful! Though, I don't know if she allowed herself to identify her feelings as "love" until after Elsa pointed them out. She was just super friendly with a man she shared a bond with (the bond being loving the children). He was unavailable and unattainable and she was a postulant. She could easily tell herself that this couldn't possibly be love from either side. Maybe she didn't even go so far as needing to deny that it was love. Maybe she didn't even consider that it could be love, until Elsa dropped the bomb on her.
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Post by augiesannie on May 2, 2024 13:04:08 GMT
Such a great discussion Chris&Byng reverendcaptain indigoblue. It seems like even before Maria literally ran away, she was kind of running away from the life she was meant to live in that she was hiding safely behind her role as a postulant. It let her be herself, as you point out so beautifully, and deny or minimize her little crush on the Captain. (Julie's acting so captures the enormous shock of all this raining down on Maria at once). I love the insight about how there can be fewer boundaries in an "unattainable" relationship.
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Post by Chris&Byng on May 5, 2024 16:39:01 GMT
"To have asked for his love would have been wrong" has always bothered me a little. It's kind of a strange thing to say. I like how you have viewed it through the lens of Catholic guilt for wanting what isn't hers. Good observation. This also makes her running logical. If it's her "sin" that is getting in the way of God's errand, she needs to get out of there. Now. I completely agree on certain boundaries being unnecessary in a relationship with an unattainable person. This worked to her advantage here because he was allowed to see her true personality and not just some always agreeable staff member. oh reverendcaptain I am so well versed in Catholic guilt hahaha
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Post by indigoblue on May 6, 2024 23:27:13 GMT
That idea of Maria regarding her relationship with Georg as a close platonic one through having common interests (the kids, a love of the mountains, etc), similar values and a sense of companionship works well, even though she probably felt a few thrills whenever they were close (which she dismissed).
To then have Elsa describe their (obvious) close relationship in tawdry terms as a cheap affair (on his part), would have been devastating for her, enough to make her run away. Catholic guilt, yes!
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Post by Chris&Byng on May 7, 2024 21:30:40 GMT
That idea of Maria regarding her relationship with Georg as a close platonic one through having common interests (the kids, a love of the mountains, etc), similar values and a sense of companionship works well, even though she probably felt a few thrills whenever they were close (which she dismissed). To then have Elsa describe their (obvious) close relationship in tawdry terms as a cheap affair (on his part), would have been devastating for her, enough to make her run away. Catholic guilt, yes! THIS!!! reverendcaptain
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Post by augiesannie on May 9, 2024 12:48:19 GMT
I was reading these last few comments, and honestly struggling a bit with the idea of a close platonic relationship between these two - honestly, are we sure that these points of connection could outweigh their vast differences in background, age, etc, plus all the emotional baggage? Although I still love the insight that it is easier to overcome the barriers when you think anything more is unattainable. But I think this just proves that they were always destined to fall in love, that there was an attraction between them that is as powerful as a few shared interests. I usually am in the camp of “I don’t care what you say in the gazebo, there’s no way that you knew you loved each other that first day,” but maybe I have to rethink it. I’m not sure this made any sense.
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Post by indigoblue on May 9, 2024 23:22:03 GMT
I suppose I was thinking of a close platonic relationship because she felt obliged to keep a lid on anything more. And by doing so, and also because of her status as a nun, it allowed her closer access to him than she would have been allowed (or allowed herself, perhaps) than if she had clearly been feeling wild about him.
Poor dear - she must have been in such turmoil!
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Post by serialshippersince4e on May 10, 2024 5:59:33 GMT
Here's my take two cents, based on stuff I know irl:
Maria believes she has a religious (meaning, separate from the world) vocation. While we all know she actually doesn't, a detail that should be added is that any true vocation, or calling, in the Catholic church is about falling in love, be it with God directly or with God through someone else, hence the Reverend Mother's "if you love this man it doesn't mean if you love God less". That is why, in recent decades, the church has also been talking about marriage as a vocation, but I know a book from the 1930s that already does it. The Reverend Mother's take is therefore, while probably unheard of for Maria, not a complete revolution.
Now, for many centuries, the priesthood and the religious life were entered by many who did not really have a vocation but found it convenient and, often, prestigious: for upper class families, it was a way to "dispatch" younger children who would not have access to an inheritance, and in poorer families the seminary was the easiest way for boys to attain an education (beyond, even where it was widespread, elementary education).
Now, Maria, while she certainly loved God, had not *fallen in love* with God; instead, as she hints to at the Reverend Mother, she has fallen in love with the convent lifestyle. While this is noble, the Reverend Mother AND Sister Berthe (she was harsh but, in the end, she was right and had everyone's best interests at heart from the start - love her) certainly knew this was not enough. I don't think that it was so much about Maria's personality (there were nuns in history who were true forces of nature - St. Catherine of Sienna and St. Therese of Avila come to mind) - it was mostly about the lack of *falling in love*. And when the opoortunity of sending Maria out into the world came in the form of Georg's desperate request for help, they are only happy to let her go.
However, Maria of course does not realize this and the she doesn't dare to think that the life she is meant to live is outside of Nonnberg's walls. Therefore, her intent was to only establish a professional, albeit cordial and even friendly relationship with the Captain. As we know, this is the opposite of what happens from the start (you don't look at all like a sea captain, sir!). The walls Maria had around her heart to protect her celibacy (which, as we already established, was an intention but not a true calling), which were already not made from the strongest material, will not be able to handle the subsequent "assault": when later the Captain reconciles with the children there are noticeable cracks; by Edelweiss there are obvious leaks; and the Laendler is when they can't handle it anymore and finally burst open. In those first few moments, with the shock, Maria is in denial. It is the conversation with Elsa that forces her to acknowledge the obvious fact that her relationship with the Captain is much more than a professional friendship, which forces her to flee to the Abbey. Not because she thinks her love for Georg is unattainable - I don't think she ever allowed herself to think anything like that - but in a desperate attempt to save what she thought was her vocation. This is consistent with her facial expression in those moments, which to me do not speak of sadness, but of fear, even panic.
As hard as they were for everybody, I think that those days in prayful seclusion were absolutely crucial for Maria to be able to truly listen to the Reverend Mother and eventually give us our happy ending. Those were the days that mellowed her so that, in that conversation, Maria finally is able to accept that her true love, her true calling is outside the walls of the Abbey. The Climb Every Mountain lyrics are about much more than Maria's feelings for Georg; they are about the orientation she will give her entire life from now on. That is why Maria does not flee the von Trapp villa immediately after of Georg and Elsa's engagement. And that is why the movie does not end with the wedding: the entire point is not about Maria and Georg's feelings for each other. Instead, those feelings are the starting point for them to join their lives together to carry them through whatever life throws at them and finding happiness, not in fortunate circumstances or lifestyle, but in giving each other their best and finding in each other the strength to give themselves to those around them - starting with their children.
And nothing illustrates this better than the parallel between the start and the ending of the movie: in the beginning we had a carefree and unpreocuppied Maria in the mountains, but who spinned around without a clear direction where to take her life; in the end, we find Maria in the mountains again but who, in spite of the obvious challenges, is now a woman on a mission, and in spite of her now more serious face, we know she is now a much happier and fulfilled woman than the girl in the beginning.
Sorry for the testament; if you're still reading, many thanks and congrats lol
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Post by utility_singer on May 10, 2024 13:07:53 GMT
I was reading these last few comments, and honestly struggling a bit with the idea of a close platonic relationship between these two - honestly, are we sure that these points of connection could outweigh their vast differences in background, age, etc, plus all the emotional baggage? Although I still love the insight that it is easier to overcome the barriers when you think anything more is unattainable. But I think this just proves that they were always destined to fall in love, that there was an attraction between them that is as powerful as a few shared interests. I usually am in the camp of “I don’t care what you say in the gazebo, there’s no way that you knew you loved each other that first day,” but maybe I have to rethink it. I’m not sure this made any sense. Here's my experience regarding what I'll call "love at first sight", or what the Italians refer to as "fulmine" --lightning, or a "bolt from the blue": I met my current companion when I was still (unhappily) married, but figured (as grandma would say) I had made my bed so I'd better lie in it and stay. The literal moment our eyes met and we shook hands, I *knew* this man I had never laid eyes on before that moment would change my life. (That he has eyes as blue as CPlums was a plus, I must say). We became quick and fast friends, despite his being nearly 18 years older. He mentored me as a performer. He helped me navigate through probably the worst time in my life (which wasn't even the divorce, it involved my kids). He gave me the courage to leave a bad marriage-not for him, but because it was best for ME. If you had asked me at the time, or before we turned from platonic to romantic, I'd have said you were crazy and denied it, that I never asked for it. But deep down, I did know, he later confessed to the exact same bolt when we met. I think that is kind of what M and G were portraying.
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