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Post by utility_singer on Feb 19, 2014 21:08:29 GMT
Mmmmmhmmmm.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Aug 31, 2019 19:23:10 GMT
When Maria repeats “in love with him” back to Elsa, do you think she does not realize that she has these feelings for him, or that she’s shocked that Elsa can see them?
What is Maria thinking when she bows her head at the end of the scene after Elsa leaves? That she’s going to miss the children? That she’s made a terrible mess of things? Do you think she believes the captain would be capable of using her and getting over her as Elsa suggested? I always kind of wanted to believe that she knows that Georg is a fine man (Reverend Mother told her so, and Maria would think she is always right. Plus, she knows him now, and would have formed her own positive opinions of his character). If she knows how honorable he is (being only his children’s governess), surely his almost betrothed would know that too. So, she is bowing her head in shame that she has done something so dreadful that she has caused Elsa to doubt Georg. But she doesn’t really even know what she did, so she leaves immediately before she does something else that would make the children lose out on getting a new mother.
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 2, 2019 20:33:09 GMT
I think Maria repeats the words “in love with him” because, although I’m sure she feels amazingly attracted to him, even dotty about him, it is still a shock when Elsa says she is in love with him. This is because it means she has transgressed the vows she was planning to make to become a nun, to love God and no other. (I think nuns consider themselves married to God). So Maria suddenly realises the enormity of the problem she has got herself into, and hangs her head in despair; this also explains her flight back to the abbey, because if she goes before anyone else knows, she can pretend nothing has happened and get back to how things were before. (Exactly Elsa’s intention!)
Also, if we assume this is the first time Maria has been in love, maybe she hadn’t recognised it for what it was (or suppressed it).
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 4, 2019 13:42:50 GMT
This whole scene is set up so nicely. Maria is so vulnerable both physically (because she is half undressed and also so plainly dressed compared to Elsa) and emotionally because the baroness is not pulling any punches.
Do you think Maria finds it odd that Elsa is so casually talking about how her almost fiancée is in love with someone else? Or does this just drive home Elsa’s point that Maria is a fling that means nothing to both Georg and Elsa, so it is easy to talk about? Do you think she believes Elsa to be trying to help her instead of scare her? She's probably so freaked out at hearing these things out loud that she didn't processed why they were being said to her in the moment (but maybe later in seclusion?).
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 4, 2019 23:35:18 GMT
Yes, it's always puzzled me how Elsa talks about Georg being in love with her so casually. But maybe it's because she is trying to overwhelm Maria whom she considers much less sophisticated and youthful, by inferring that she is a 'bit of frippery' for him. In doing so, she infers that their relationship is much more important, and also that when you are older, minor indiscretions are a normal part of any relationship (which they may have been if her Vienna life was rather 'fast').
Elsa does come over as 'the mature woman' advising the new girl, so maybe Maria thought she was trying to help her back to the convent!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 6, 2019 15:02:09 GMT
What if Max had never invited Maria to dinner and this scene had never happened? I think that Georg allowing Maria to attend HER party is what put Elsa over the edge, and made her take matters into her own hands (not the Laendler). Clearly, Maria would not have left that night. Would she have made it until September? Would Georg have proposed to Elsa with Maria still at the house? I think no.
Why is Elsa not talking to Georg about this? He’s the one she’s in a relationship with. Something like “Georg, it bothers me how you are looking at the governess. Please tell me I’m worrying over nothing.” Too direct?
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 6, 2019 23:17:47 GMT
She'd have to have courage to question him like that, because my feeling is that Georg hasn't really taken it on board properly (even before Maria left for the Abbey). So his response to her might well have been to shrug it off, anyway.
As for the change in plot - hmm, that requires a lot of thought!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 13, 2019 15:03:40 GMT
Do you think Maria ever tells Georg about this conversation with Elsa? Or is she happy that things worked out how they did and there is no reason to make him think less of Elsa for scaring her away that night?
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 14, 2019 23:11:32 GMT
In a funny way,I don't think she would say anything; it's almost 'a thing between two women'.
Actually, if I were caught in Elsa's position, I'd be feeling pretty resentful about it too!
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Post by pandaexpress on Jan 25, 2020 0:58:07 GMT
What is Maria thinking when she bows her head at the end of the scene after Elsa leaves? That she’s going to miss the children? That she’s made a terrible mess of things? Do you think she believes the captain would be capable of using her and getting over her as Elsa suggested? I always kind of wanted to believe that she knows that Georg is a fine man (Reverend Mother told her so, and Maria would think she is always right. Plus, she knows him now, and would have formed her own positive opinions of his character). If she knows how honorable he is (being only his children’s governess), surely his almost betrothed would know that too. So, she is bowing her head in shame that she has done something so dreadful that she has caused Elsa to doubt Georg. But she doesn’t really even know what she did, so she leaves immediately before she does something else that would make the children lose out on getting a new mother. I think she could also be thinking how much she is going to miss Georg. But I don't know!
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 25, 2020 23:45:24 GMT
...Yes, and the kids and the house and the garden and their trips to Salzburg and...
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Post by pandaexpress on Jan 28, 2020 5:40:57 GMT
Also why does Maria say the captain notices everybody? Where did she get that from? If this just her deflecting because she doesn't want to think he has feelings for her? DOES the Captain notice everything?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 28, 2020 14:26:08 GMT
Also why does Maria say the captain notices everybody? Where did she get that from? If this just her deflecting because she doesn't want to think he has feelings for her? DOES the Captain notice everything? Good question! It does seem like a deflecting thing to say. Though, how she says it, it doesn't really come out that way. It would seem to be more deflecting if she had looked at Elsa and said, "It's not just me! He notices everyone!" But instead she walks away to keep her back to the baroness, and her voice is...I don't know, hurt? ashamed? scared?. Does she feel ashamed that the baroness notices that Georg notices her? Is she afraid to admit to herself that she knows he notices her? And back to your question of what proof do we have that he does notice everybody and everything. The whole argument scene is her pointing out that he doesn't even know his own children and is blind to them wanting his attention. He obviously changes his ways and is very involved with his family during the puppet show and edelweiss scenes. Maybe this shows that he is trying extra hard to notice everybody because he was neglecting them for so long? But somehow Maria got included in the everybody that he wants to know better, and the baroness is jealous of this. Maybe she just feels like he notices everybody and everything because she is used to being an outcast and having someone give her respect and positive attention makes her feel very "noticed"?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 26, 2020 16:47:03 GMT
I don't know if this belongs in this thread, but I don't know where else to put it, and it's about Maria and Elsa, so I'm sticking it here.
What does Maria think about Elsa's place in this family as time goes on? She loves the idea of the captain marrying again when Frau Schmidt brings it up, because the children will have a mother again. She must realize quickly that Elsa is not really the caring mother figure that she is praying for though.
I'm sure her feelings get very confused once she starts falling for Georg. Though, I think she has convinced herself that she has to be a nun until RM lets her off the hook, so she could still have an opinion about who the captain should marry up until that conversation (since she feels it can't be her). Thoughts?
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 3, 2020 0:39:15 GMT
I'm sure she wouldn't approve of a 'hands off mother', which I'm sure Elsa would be, and she knows the kids don't like Elsa. So I'm sure she has great anxieties for them as a family if Elsa gets hitched to Georg.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 9, 2020 15:31:47 GMT
I agree, Elsa joining the family has to be a huge source of anxiety for Maria. It wouldn't be her place to have an opinion on such things, but since when has she cared about what her place should be? She knows that the captain is considering marrying Elsa soon, and I'm sure that the children confide in her that they don't like Elsa, and even if they didn't, that is obvious with their interactions or lack there of. She has to worry about their future happiness, and about how a marriage to Elsa would affect the captain's time spent with his children.
Do you think Maria and Frau Schmidt ever talk about Elsa again? I don't think Maria would instigate that, but Frau Schmidt might. She has to like Maria, and she clearly knew from the start that Elsa was not the right fit to marry Georg.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 17, 2020 0:45:19 GMT
I'm sure Maria would be a little afraid of becoming the subject of Frau Schmidt's gossip if anything untoward became apparent to her - either with it being gossipped within the house, or worse, outside. So maybe instinctively she would keep her distance?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 17, 2020 12:52:00 GMT
Good point. Likely, Maria has no one that she trusts to confide in about any of her troubles.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 21, 2020 23:10:50 GMT
I don't know if this belongs in this thread, but I don't know where else to put it, and it's about Maria and Elsa, so I'm sticking it here. What does Maria think about Elsa's place in this family as time goes on? She loves the idea of the captain marrying again when Frau Schmidt brings it up, because the children will have a mother again. She must realize quickly that Elsa is not really the caring mother figure that she is praying for though. I'm sure her feelings get very confused once she starts falling for Georg. Though, I think she has convinced herself that she has to be a nun until RM lets her off the hook, so she could still have an opinion about who the captain should marry up until that conversation (since she feels it can't be her). Thoughts? also when she envisions a new mother for the children, she hasn't met Elsa yet. may not be what she had in mind.
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 20, 2020 9:10:13 GMT
What does Maria think about Elsa's place in this family as time goes on? She loves the idea of the captain marrying again when Frau Schmidt brings it up, because the children will have a mother again. She must realize quickly that Elsa is not really the caring mother figure that she is praying for though. I don't think that Maria judges the baroness as to whether she will be a good mother for the children. She is focused on the mission she believes she has. She is far too innocent and honest to find faults at anyone. Elsa tells her that there is nothing more irresistible to a man than a woman who is in love with him. In other words she tells Maria that as she is in love with him, she made the captain believe that he feels the same, he could not resist her because that is how the nature of men works. Subconsciously she accuses Maria, she puts the blame on her presence at the villa (she doesn't have to do anything to attract the captain as she is quite attractive), as men do that (fall in love with women infatuated with them) you know but they get over it soon (it is not a deep feeling but a temporary one and will vanish as time goes by). Notice the use of '' believes he is in love'' for the captain. She degrades in a way his feelings, it is just a belief, tomorrow he will change his mind. That is why she runs away to the abbey, she is overwhelmed by the guilt and fear of doing any wrong. At the abbey the nuns reprimanded her for doing mischiefs. At the villa the baroness blames her that only by her presence, she made the captain fall in love with her. I believe that the baroness wanted to make her go away and she succeeded.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 20, 2020 23:47:24 GMT
The fact that Elsa talks so glibly about Georg falling for Maria, and how temporary it will be, suggests to me that she has had bitter experiences of the same thing happening to her in the past, perhaps several times. Combining that with "I need to find a man who wants me, not my money" and one gets a glimpse into a rather sad aspect of Elsa's life. Maybe her previous marriage was marred by infidelity, and subsequent relationships by gold-diggers...so if she thought Georg was going to be her answer, she must be feeling devastated by his fascination with Maria.
I've always felt that, given the circumstances, Elsa was surprisingly civil: not easy being alone and so far from home.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 21, 2020 17:41:55 GMT
The fact that Elsa talks so glibly about Georg falling for Maria, and how temporary it will be, suggests to me that she has had bitter experiences of the same thing happening to her in the past, perhaps several times. Combining that with "I need to find a man who wants me, not my money" and one gets a glimpse into a rather sad aspect of Elsa's life. Maybe her previous marriage was marred by infidelity, and subsequent relationships by gold-diggers...so if she thought Georg was going to be her answer, she must be feeling devastated by his fascination with Maria. I've always felt that, given the circumstances, Elsa was surprisingly civil: not easy being alone and so far from home. Maybe this is why Elsa was attracted to Georg in the first place. She can see that he is not after her for her money, and she can tell by his heartache over Agathe that he is capable of a loving faithful marriage. Maybe she has never been in a relationship with those two boxes checked before. Plus, he's easy on the eyes... Maybe in some way, this is why she lets him off the hook so easily on the balcony. She can tell that Georg and Maria will have a loving faithful marriage, and this is something she so desperately wants, that she can't stand in the way of someone she cares about getting it, even if that leaves her as odd man out. Plus, she can see that Georg is in love with Maria, so even if he marries her (Elsa), she will not be in the loving marriage she desires, since her husband's heart will belong to someone else. But yes, the devastation she must have felt in realizing this must have been crushing.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 21, 2020 23:25:28 GMT
What irony that adds to Elsa's comment (and your caption), "What a lovely couple you make"...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 24, 2020 11:37:19 GMT
What was Elsa hoping to accomplish with this talk? She seems shocked that Maria was leaving for the abbey, so I don't think this was her original plan (though she certainly was not complaining about it). Was she just trying to get Maria to not come to dinner? Was she trying to get Maria to be so self conscious around Georg that their budding relationship would fall apart?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 24, 2020 11:40:26 GMT
Was Maria planning to wear the blue dress to dinner? Though we don't know exactly when Elsa comes in, it seems like Maria was already changing out of her Laendler dress. She had to have been planning to put on the blue dress, suck up her overwhelming feelings, and attend dinner right?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 24, 2020 11:54:44 GMT
Just to complicate the issue, I seem to remember people saying that on the BluRay edition, you can clearly see tears in Elsa's eyes and even on her cheeks in the bedroom scene! WHAT?! Where does that fit in?! I was looking for this, and I can't see any tears on her face. Though, it does look like she has tears in her eyes in this scene. Maybe they are tears of joy that a problem like Maria is solved for her? On this same subject, I think she looks like she is going to cry after the children kiss her in the new mother scene. And she definitely looks like she is going to cry in the balcony scene. It is an amazing skill to be able to have your eyes water on command but not let the tears fall. It is so perfect for Elsa's character. She has to put on the brave face, but inside things aren't right.
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 1, 2020 17:11:30 GMT
i LOVE those tear-filled eyes in the balcony scene. And her obvious insecurity during the engagement announcement. I can never write her as a mean wicked person. I think she was trying for a modest "put Maria in her place" effect and overshot. Although... that look of triumph on her face when she says "good bye Maria. I'm sure you'll make a very fine nun?" cold. very cold.
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 4, 2020 18:45:23 GMT
Maybe Elsa has a painful sense of deja vu when she talks about the Captain being in love with Maria? Maybe this is something which she has experienced before - her husband or previous boyfriend having an affair with another woman (her best friend...). In this case, she might well be feeling the tears of anguish pricking her eyes, as it happens yet again?
If this is the case, then "He'll get over it, you know, they always do" perhaps comes from her personal experience, although it might have been after years of infidelity; so her attempt to send Maria away is quite reasonable, particularly if she senses Maria would be easy to scare off.
So I feel her tears, followed by a sense of triumphalism here, may be evidence of some deeply bitter memories for the woman.
I expect you can tell I am a member of the Baroness Fan Club!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 7, 2021 21:28:42 GMT
I was thinking today about Elsa's line "Goodbye Maria. I'm sure you'll make a very fine nun." which I always thought was kind of jerky thing to say, though I don't know exactly why I think that. Is she being sincere saying this? Is it just a polite ending to her conversation? Is she falling back to Maria's expression of insecurity after the puppet show? Is she just relieved that Maria is out of the picture and says this to concrete the fact in her mind that Maria will be a nun and is not available to go after Georg?
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laurynvi
Full Member
I ask you to stay.
Posts: 212
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Post by laurynvi on Jan 8, 2021 2:49:07 GMT
Maybe a emphasis on Maria having no claim here? A reminder, "you do not belong here, now get a-going back to the Abbey" sort of thing?
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