galan
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I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
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Post by galan on Jul 27, 2021 22:07:14 GMT
but there have been plenty of conversations about why Maria was at the Abbey in the first place. In her own way she is very spiritual but she doesn’t seem like the pure, chaste type — too passionate for that. (And let’s not forget, the love between a man and a woman is holy too :-)). I guess I can see it both ways … I grok that, but I have definitely met individuals who tick both categories. (And of course the history of monastaries and abbeys isn't particularly chaste, either.) I guess we'll just have to keep writing stories to figure it out!
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 27, 2021 22:41:16 GMT
I can only say that I know a woman who spent a decade as a nun in a convent before leaving...to (very quickly) marry a monk...and to have children!
Unfortunately I do not know the incy-wincey disgusting details of it all to know exactly what happened, and where, but it would be interesting to know!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Jul 27, 2021 23:43:42 GMT
My mom used to say the same thing as Chris&Byng ’s grand mother (although I don’t think my mom actually crossed the line) - that circumstances were different once the wedding was imminent. Also, of course I have a lot of respect for the religious principles, but there have been plenty of conversations about why Maria was at the Abbey in the first place. In her own way she is very spiritual but she doesn’t seem like the pure, chaste type — too passionate for that. (And let’s not forget, the love between a man and a woman is holy too :-)). I guess I can see it both ways … ...part of me also thinks that they might agree that 'not waiting' would be far less stressful for Maria. Can you imagine the people she would be mingling with that day...the different classes, being younger, and marrying a man with experience...it would be a stressful day JUST for those points alone...then, you can imagine poor Maria trying to get through all of THAT on her wedding day and then knowing there's STILL more stress to come! Heck, get some of it out of the way if you can
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 28, 2021 11:25:40 GMT
I’m in hearty agreement with galan about the need for more stories to figure it out! And Chris&Byng has captured so well how my thinking has gone when I’ve written ‘not waited” - the idea that their intimacy is almost reassuring to her as she navigates a strange new world. Reading this thread also reminded me that when you do write the “not waited” scenario, you have to strike the right tone with Georg. He can’t be an evil seducer, he has to be almost a little reluctant. In fact, in my “waited” stories, he’s frequently the one who wants to wait, suggesting a delicious sort of fear that his intensity will scare her off if they jump the gun. OK this made me want to go write.
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galan
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I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
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Post by galan on Jul 29, 2021 0:50:07 GMT
Reading this thread also reminded me that when you do write the “not waited” scenario, you have to strike the right tone with Georg. He can’t be an evil seducer, he has to be almost a little reluctant. In fact, in my “waited” stories, he’s frequently the one who wants to wait, suggesting a delicious sort of fear that his intensity will scare her off if they jump the gun. OK this made me want to go write. Agreed. I think also there needs to be that balance with Maria: she may be completely inexperienced (or so we assume?), but she's no shrinking violet. Maybe nervous, maybe anxious, but not scared. I've read some stories where she's full on scared, and they come across oddly. Also agreed! I just wish there was a way to work this topic into what I'm drafting. Ah well, I'm putting them through enough anyway!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Jul 29, 2021 3:12:54 GMT
I’m in hearty agreement with galan about the need for more stories to figure it out! And Chris&Byng has captured so well how my thinking has gone when I’ve written ‘not waited” - the idea that their intimacy is almost reassuring to her as she navigates a strange new world. Reading this thread also reminded me that when you do write the “not waited” scenario, you have to strike the right tone with Georg. He can’t be an evil seducer, he has to be almost a little reluctant. In fact, in my “waited” stories, he’s frequently the one who wants to wait, suggesting a delicious sort of fear that his intensity will scare her off if they jump the gun. OK this made me want to go write. I am definitely following your train of thought, here, and I agree Georg would be the cautious one. At the same time, nun-in-training or not, Maria is a young woman and NO one hands any young woman a manual on how to navigate your feelings. She is also a passionate person and no shrinking violet. Imagine how liberated you must feel when you realize the life of seclusion and chastity (that you weren't really totally sold on) you had been planning for yourself has been replaced with this (and with Georg haha)??
I recall a few stories where Maria bemoans the fact that so much of her life is changing and Georg is the only steadfast thing she can cling to.
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 29, 2021 22:48:17 GMT
Are we assuming that Georg has been celibate all the time he has been widowed? Five years?
It's just that if this is the case, it is a LONG time for a well-experienced man like him to be without...entertainment...
Just sayin' that perhaps this needs to be factored in to the did they/didn't they scenario?
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 29, 2021 22:49:23 GMT
Actually, do you think this is why he is so crabby when she first meets him?
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galan
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I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
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Post by galan on Jul 30, 2021 1:16:26 GMT
Are we assuming that Georg has been celibate all the time he has been widowed? Five years? It's just that if this is the case, it is a LONG time for a well-experienced man like him to be without...entertainment... Just sayin' that perhaps this needs to be factored in to the did they/didn't they scenario? An excellent question, and I'm sure there are many paths to take from it. My inclination is that it seems unlikely, given the even higher double standards for sexuality in that day. My hypothesis is that it might have been like having a mistress: don't talk about it too openly and don't get too attached. (Not saying he would have done that whilst married, but the best analogy I can think of.) If he HAS been celibate that long, then he probably would be quite eager for things to speed up. But then there come the questions of boundaries and respecting them if you truly love someone, which means we need to explore Maria's devotion to the church and its teachings, no matter how frustrated he is. Just my thoughts on it.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 31, 2021 20:10:57 GMT
I think they waited. For Maria, not waiting would have been a mortal sin. She wouldn't want that hanging over her head, and Georg wouldn't want her to start their marriage regretting something that should be wonderful. I know there are many even devout Catholics that didn't wait, but given that it was the 30s and that she was just out of the convent, I think she would have felt too guilty about giving in to temptation.
As for Georg's celibacy, I think he was not with anyone after Agathe. I think he was heartbroken and didn't want a meanless night of distraction when he knew how great it could be when it meant more than that. The question about if this why he was so crabby when she first met him made me LOL. I'm sure it wasn't helping his overall moodiness.
As for their personalities, I agree that Maria is no shrinking violet. She proves that at the end of the gazebo scene. Though, I do think that she lack experience. Georg knows the gift he has been given in finding Maria. I think he is happy to take it slow with her, even though he desires her, knowing that in a few months she would be his wife and then they would have the rest of their lives for intimacy.
Overall, I think their engagement was fairly innocent. The idea of handling wedding night activities early as a means of reducing stress on the actual wedding day is an interesting one. Though, I think if the wedding and reception were super stressful and overwhelming, Georg would have been ok telling her that they should just snuggle together that night and sleep. Then once they are alone in Paris...time could be taken to enjoy one another.
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 31, 2021 22:29:59 GMT
Actually, do you think this is why he is so crabby when she first meets him? ROFL.
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 31, 2021 22:32:00 GMT
I tend to the school of thought that he lost interest after A’s death, although I think in one story, I had him go to the opposite extreme and sleep his way across Europe. I love how for all of these debates, I have tried it every which way! But one usually rings true and in this case I’m more inclined to think he’d been celibate.
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 31, 2021 22:32:05 GMT
I tend to the school of thought that he lost interest after A’s death, although I think in one story, I had him go to the opposite extreme and sleep his way across Europe. I love how for all of these debates, I have tried it every which way! But one usually rings true and in this case I’m more inclined to think he’d been celibate.
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galan
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I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
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Post by galan on Jul 31, 2021 23:25:15 GMT
I tend to the school of thought that he lost interest after A’s death, although I think in one story, I had him go to the opposite extreme and sleep his way across Europe. I love how for all of these debates, I have tried it every which way! But one usually rings true and in this case I’m more inclined to think he’d been celibate. I can see how that would be a possibility, though less so than emotionally unattached encounters. (Bodies have needs brains sometimes can't overcome.) Lost interest in love and having a proper romantic partner after her death? Absolutely. (We see how wishy-washy about Elsa you sometimes are, dear sir.) My two Schillings, that's all.
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 31, 2021 23:51:04 GMT
I tend to the school of thought that he lost interest after A’s death, although I think in one story, I had him go to the opposite extreme and sleep his way across Europe. I love how for all of these debates, I have tried it every which way! But one usually rings true and in this case I’m more inclined to think he’d been celibate. I can see how that would be a possibility, though less so than emotionally unattached encounters. (Bodies have needs brains sometimes can't overcome.) Lost interest in love and having a proper romantic partner after her death? Absolutely. (We see how wishy-washy about Elsa you sometimes are, dear sir.) My two Schillings, that's all. I definitely like the scenario where his body wakes up even though his heart is still cold. That’s probably my favorite of all, now that you mention it.
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MeltIntoSpring
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"Enchanting little ritual. Something you learned at the.. Abbey?"
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Post by MeltIntoSpring on Aug 8, 2021 12:57:42 GMT
I'd like to think they waited (even if it were just by the skin of their teeth) but sometimes I can't be quite sure. I have a story I am working on at the moment, and I have written two alternate chapters. One that it is a comfortable T, and one that is... Well... One that I can't quite believe came out of my own mind. I'm just deciding which one to post. I agree with Chris&Byng in the way that Maria would feel less pressured when it came to it. Besides, I feel like she'd feel odd with the knowledge that everyone would know what they'd be up to on their wedding night. So I'm on the fence with this one...
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 8, 2021 14:18:14 GMT
I'm going to be real ole'-fashioned and say that I like the idea that they didn't at all before the wedding, and not even on their wedding night. I have a feeling that Georg was, at his age, experienced enough to know that some things are best taken slowly and not rushed, and to this end, I like to think he took his time and taught her the best of what he knew, until it felt right for her to let him know she was ready.
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galan
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I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
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Post by galan on Aug 8, 2021 14:53:45 GMT
I'm going to be real ole'-fashioned and say that I like the idea that they didn't at all before the wedding, and not even on their wedding night. I totally see the first half, but I'm split on the second half. Your reasoning is sound--and I appreciate that insight into his personality--but the entire scene in the gazebo is so laced with desire...*again, fans self in Southern Belle* I can see a couple of scenarios where that DOES work in my brain, nothing happening immediately after the wedding, but caution and gentleness don't factor into that argument for me. But yet again, this is why we just need to write more stories to explore everything!
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laurynvi
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Post by laurynvi on Aug 8, 2021 14:58:16 GMT
I am baffled that I haven't responded to this poll! I added my vote to the overwhelming majority that yes, they waited, and echo Indigoblue's thoughts. I think sex would have still been a relatively taboo topic back then, and given the lack of experienced women in Maria's life she would have been extremely naive going into her engagement. I imagine Georg slowly guiding her through the exploration of her sexuality that started after the gazebo and extended past the wedding. (I'm also ambivalent about the idea of "the wedding night" as I always imagine they'd be exhausted after such a long day!) Oh, and for your alternative chapters, MeltIntoSpring - I've seen some writers post both. Usually the non-M version in the main story and the M version as a separate story (keeping the full story as a T allows it to be visible to more readers as FF's default does not include M stories...)
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 8, 2021 23:14:25 GMT
I'd like to think they waited (even if it were just by the skin of their teeth) but sometimes I can't be quite sure. I have a story I am working on at the moment, and I have written two alternate chapters. One that it is a comfortable T, and one that is... Well... One that I can't quite believe came out of my own mind. I'm just deciding which one to post. I agree with Chris&Byng in the way that Maria would feel less pressured when it came to it. Besides, I feel like she'd feel odd with the knowledge that everyone would know what they'd be up to on their wedding night. So I'm on the fence with this one... POST. THEM. BOTH. PLEASE.
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 8, 2021 23:15:35 GMT
I'm going to be real ole'-fashioned and say that I like the idea that they didn't at all before the wedding, and not even on their wedding night. I totally see the first half, but I'm split on the second half. Your reasoning is sound--and I appreciate that insight into his personality--but the entire scene in the gazebo is so laced with desire...*again, fans self in Southern Belle* I can see a couple of scenarios where that DOES work in my brain, nothing happening immediately after the wedding, but caution and gentleness don't factor into that argument for me. But yet again, this is why we just need to write more stories to explore everything! Yes, it must be that we have to write more stories, because I like this scenario too. So far I have liked three completely different scenarios!
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tsom
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Post by tsom on Aug 9, 2021 21:40:42 GMT
They waited because the wreath of myrtle Maria wore on her wedding day was a symbol of virginity. What trips me up is the line "We missed all the noise you make in the morning telling each other to be quiet." Why would Maria and the Captain miss all that noise if they were in separate bedrooms before getting married?
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 9, 2021 21:52:51 GMT
Wow! Razor-sharp observations tsom!
Welcome to the Sound of Music Sleuthing Club!
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 9, 2021 22:38:54 GMT
haha, tsom, that is very very funny and an excellent point although I suppose if they were VERY noisy, M&G might have heard them from their separate quarters. Gotta go check out the floor plan! Here's what I want to know though: if all of you are such firm believers that they waited, does that mean you only want to read stories where they waited? And here's another question - I am in this Bridgerton Facebook group where everyone is laughing about how in romance novels, the first time is always stupendous which is often not the case IRL, maybe especially for the woman. So, whether implied or explicit, do you like a realistic wedding night or a dreamy one?
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galan
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I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
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Post by galan on Aug 9, 2021 23:49:20 GMT
Here's what I want to know though: if all of you are such firm believers that they waited, does that mean you only want to read stories where they waited? And here's another question - I am in this Bridgerton Facebook group where everyone is laughing about how in romance novels, the first time is always stupendous which is often not the case IRL, maybe especially for the woman. So, whether implied or explicit, do you like a realistic wedding night or a dreamy one? I enjoy reading stories where they don't wait because it pushes the characters' boundaries, as long as their reaction is in line with their personalities. So, for example, if they do give in to passion, I don't see it becoming a pattern of behavior though I can see no real regret. Realistic wedding nights are my cup of tea. Dreamy ones are basically wish fulfillment on the part of the author, which is lazy writing in my opinion, and exploring all the awkwardness of learning what your partner wants and likes is much more challenging. To say nothing of the extra awkwardness if one of the participants IS a virgin. (That might be a fun thing to write...) But, having said all that, will I read dreamy fluffy ones? Yup, sometimes wish fulfillment is what you need. ETA: Also, this is a slight tangent, but one of the reasons I sometimes have trouble with fluffy dreamy wedding nights is it can be obvious that the writer has no...um...experience? (I'll edit this out if necessary.) I've read a couple where it was really obvious and it just perpetuates misinformation.
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laurynvi
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Post by laurynvi on Aug 10, 2021 15:18:13 GMT
I could probably be convinced of anything, when it comes to M and G. I think in the right situation, they could easily give themselves over to passion, and I would be totally here for it.
Hmm, I think I'm more on the side of dreamy, BECAUSE fanfiction.
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Post by juliemadlydeeply on Aug 10, 2021 19:37:52 GMT
I'd like to think they waited (even if it were just by the skin of their teeth) but sometimes I can't be quite sure. I have a story I am working on at the moment, and I have written two alternate chapters. One that it is a comfortable T, and one that is... Well... One that I can't quite believe came out of my own mind. I'm just deciding which one to post. I agree with Chris&Byng in the way that Maria would feel less pressured when it came to it. Besides, I feel like she'd feel odd with the knowledge that everyone would know what they'd be up to on their wedding night. So I'm on the fence with this one... I'm going to echo the other sentiments in this thread and say there's no harm in posting them both-- especially to us readers! Even if you post the M-rated one as a separate one-shot away from the established story instead of as an alternate chapter. (I've seen it done both ways and have always just appreciated the extra material to read, no matter how it ends up being posted!)
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MeltIntoSpring
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"Enchanting little ritual. Something you learned at the.. Abbey?"
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Post by MeltIntoSpring on Aug 10, 2021 23:19:33 GMT
I'd like to think they waited (even if it were just by the skin of their teeth) but sometimes I can't be quite sure. I have a story I am working on at the moment, and I have written two alternate chapters. One that it is a comfortable T, and one that is... Well... One that I can't quite believe came out of my own mind. I'm just deciding which one to post. I agree with Chris&Byng in the way that Maria would feel less pressured when it came to it. Besides, I feel like she'd feel odd with the knowledge that everyone would know what they'd be up to on their wedding night. So I'm on the fence with this one... POST. THEM. BOTH. PLEASE. I suppose it would be awfully rude of me not to
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 16, 2021 15:02:09 GMT
Here's what I want to know though: if all of you are such firm believers that they waited, does that mean you only want to read stories where they waited? And here's another question - I am in this Bridgerton Facebook group where everyone is laughing about how in romance novels, the first time is always stupendous which is often not the case IRL, maybe especially for the woman. So, whether implied or explicit, do you like a realistic wedding night or a dreamy one? I enjoy reading stories where they don't wait because it pushes the characters' boundaries, as long as their reaction is in line with their personalities. So, for example, if they do give in to passion, I don't see it becoming a pattern of behavior though I can see no real regret. Realistic wedding nights are my cup of tea. Dreamy ones are basically wish fulfillment on the part of the author, which is lazy writing in my opinion, and exploring all the awkwardness of learning what your partner wants and likes is much more challenging. To say nothing of the extra awkwardness if one of the participants IS a virgin. (That might be a fun thing to write...) But, having said all that, will I read dreamy fluffy ones? Yup, sometimes wish fulfillment is what you need. ETA: Also, this is a slight tangent, but one of the reasons I sometimes have trouble with fluffy dreamy wedding nights is it can be obvious that the writer has no...um...experience? (I'll edit this out if necessary.) I've read a couple where it was really obvious and it just perpetuates misinformation. I think a story can be both fluffy and realistic if done in the right way. As for your slight tangent, I haven't read too many TSOM stories where I find the author to be..uninformed, but I have in other fandoms. I usually just chalk this up to the author being really young (and maybe embarrassed to ask someone to proof read it before posting?), and good for them that they are working these things out writing fanfiction instead of jumping in bed with someone before they are ready.
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Post by missisa on Sept 16, 2021 16:07:36 GMT
Of course they waited. In order not to repeat what has already been said here, I will go through quick points: M, for her moral values and her education. Yes, she has THAT MAN in front of her. But Maria's will and honesty is not so easily collapsible. G, first of all for respecting her. Second, because he probably wanted something well done and not rash and forbidden (sorry for my English), and now with the peace of mind of knowing she is there with him forever, without fear of losing her. He can afford to wait a bit and enjoy his love and preparations in peace of mind. On the other hand, I like to imagine a wedding in style but the 'just married couple' "fleeing" from their own celebration as soon as they were allowed to escape: surely that same night they got into the car to Paris, making sure that the children stay well cared and safely. So once everybody are attended and guests are satisfied, nothing is more romantic than a honeymoon getaway and of course stopping halfway to indulge in each other before reaching their French destination. I confess this is a bit weird but it doesn't seem entirely far-fetched to me if we bet they haven't done anything by then, so their party will most likely be concluded by them sooner rather than later in order to enjoy their marriage asap I don't if that make any sense out of my head LOL
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