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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 24, 2020 16:49:17 GMT
We have been trying to sort this out in the kissing thread. What does everyone think? Did they wait (I think yes, just because she is so Catholic) or did they give in to temptation before the wedding. It would have been easy to do after the gazebo before they had any chaperones...
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 26, 2020 0:19:37 GMT
I have voted that they waited, but in truth I suspect it was ooooooonly just...
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 15, 2020 9:47:12 GMT
We have been trying to sort this out in the kissing thread. What does everyone think? Did they wait (I think yes, just because she is so Catholic) or did they give in to temptation before the wedding. It would have been easy to do after the gazebo before they had any chaperones... I wrote it also elsewhere, I believe they waited because in those times that was the normal route of events. The wedding was set on a date really soon, maybe a week, maximum 15days, because the Captain knew that the anschluss was coming so I believe this was the reason he wanted to get married soon, and get away with his children, he had decided in his mind to leave when the nazis would invite him to join their navy. I also believe that from the moment the Captain announced that he was going to marry her, Maria no longer stayed at the villa but returned to the abbey, from where she left in her wedding gown for the chapel.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 16, 2020 15:07:28 GMT
We have been trying to sort this out in the kissing thread. What does everyone think? Did they wait (I think yes, just because she is so Catholic) or did they give in to temptation before the wedding. It would have been easy to do after the gazebo before they had any chaperones... I wrote it also elsewhere, I believe they waited because in those times that was the normal route of events. The wedding was set on a date really soon, maybe a week, maximum 15days, because the Captain knew that the anschluss was coming so I believe this was the reason he wanted to get married soon, and get away with his children, he had decided in his mind to leave when the nazis would invite him to join their navy. I also believe that from the moment the Captain announced that he was going to marry her, Maria no longer stayed at the villa but returned to the abbey, from where she left in her wedding gown for the chapel. Interesting wedding date timeline! I'm sure they would want to marry quickly, but I think Georg would be concerned about it looking scandalous if he hosted a party to introduce Elsa to his friends, and then she is gone and he is married to someone else in a couple weeks time. I see what you mean about trying to get out before the anschluss, but wouldn't it look like he got his governess pregnant and lost his glamorous almost fiancee over it if they didn't at least wait a couple months? I wonder if Georg thought that the anschluss wasn't coming soon (or was at least telling himself that) or why wouldn't he get his children out of Austria sooner than he did? She probably did have to stay at the abbey for the engagement. Any chaperone Georg would provide would likely not be strict enough for RM.
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 16, 2020 17:43:15 GMT
I wonder if Georg thought that the anschluss wasn't coming soon (or was at least telling himself that) or why wouldn't he get his children out of Austria sooner than he did? She probably did have to stay at the abbey for the engagement. Any chaperone Georg would provide would likely not be strict enough for RM. At the reception we all know, I think his social circle was invited. At the church, every Salzburger was there. The baroness had high prestige surely but I imagine that everyone would understand or at least suspect that Maria was a more family-type woman than the partying baroness. As Georg is rich and a naval hero, I don't think that he cared much about what people say or imagine about his personal life, and especially in a pre-war time. And also the fact that the marriage was so prominent and ostentatious with the Archbishop and other priests there and Maria going out from the abbey with all the nuns accompanying her, singing and praising her (because I consider that the ''how you solve a problem like Maria'' is a praise for Maria and not a blame, if we think about the rest of the lyrics, the words praise her free spirit and independence), all this suggests that things were done in the right order. If Georg was asked what happened to the baroness he could say that she missed Vienna and returned back. And since he is a widower with seven children who would blame him for marrying a woman who knows how to keep up a family? If he married Maria in a restricted circle without such a crowd of people, archbishop and nuns, and generally he did not make a fuss around his wedding, then maybe people would suspect that he got Maria pregnant. But in this case the movie shows a huge celebration with all the showing off of a royal wedding.
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 18, 2020 23:42:00 GMT
IRL you know he left her right after they got engaged and stayed away for a while so that people would know she wasn't pregnant for the wedding. But they had ten years until the Anschluss .... I have written it both ways in my stories, but on balance I think they waited.
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Apr 19, 2020 13:37:26 GMT
I'm sure that even though they waited, it must've been difficult and they probably (for lack of a better term) had a few close calls.
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Post by captainfraulein on May 11, 2020 19:06:55 GMT
I think they definitely waited. Yes, there were most likely a number of (very) close calls but that's about it. There would have been multiple chaperones and I have always imagined that she spent part of the engagement period at the Abbey. Maybe closer to the wedding in case things got, for want of a better word, steamy😉
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on May 12, 2020 0:36:09 GMT
I think they definitely waited. Yes, there were most likely a number of (very) close calls but that's about it. There would have been multiple chaperones and I have always imagined that she spent part of the engagement period at the Abbey. Maybe closer to the wedding in case things got, for want of a better word, steamy😉 I agree. I do also wonder though, how many close calls they actually had. I assume that there wasn't too many because of the amount of chaperones they probably had.
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 12, 2020 14:02:15 GMT
I think they definitely waited. Yes, there were most likely a number of (very) close calls but that's about it. There would have been multiple chaperones and I have always imagined that she spent part of the engagement period at the Abbey. Maybe closer to the wedding in case things got, for want of a better word, steamy😉 I agree. I do also wonder though, how many close calls they actually had. I assume that there wasn't too many because of the amount of chaperones they probably had. I wonder what happened the rest of the gazebo evening. How long did they stay out there? Did they go somewhere together (his study?) after they left the gazebo? Georg would know that Maria would want to ask/tell the children the next day. And after the news was out, there would be chaperones everywhere or she would be sent to the abbey. How far would he let things go that night while they were still free to be alone together? He wouldn't want to scare her, or do anything she would regret, but she seems like an eager participant in the gazebo smooching. I wonder how far they took things that night.
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Post by captainfraulein on May 12, 2020 14:26:18 GMT
I agree. I do also wonder though, how many close calls they actually had. I assume that there wasn't too many because of the amount of chaperones they probably had. I wonder what happened the rest of the gazebo evening. How long did they stay out there? Did they go somewhere together (his study?) after they left the gazebo? Georg would know that Maria would want to ask/tell the children the next day. And after the news was out, there would be chaperones everywhere or she would be sent to the abbey. How far would he let things go that night while they were still free to be alone together? He wouldn't want to scare her, or do anything she would regret, but she seems like an eager participant in the gazebo smooching. I wonder how far they took things that night. I doubt they would have went very far or done anything particularly scandalous. Although it is clear that Maria is very passionate, she has just been sprung from the Abbey, had her heartbroken and found out that the love of her life does indeed love her back, all in a relatively short time period (if not in the same day.) I therefore doubt there would have been anything other than a few (or more) passionate kisses on the sofa in his study because what she has been through is very overwhelming and I think he would be content enough just to hold her and be in her presence. I also think they would have spent a lot of time just talking to each other because there would have been a lot that needed to be discussed.
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Post by indigoblue on May 17, 2020 23:59:38 GMT
I've often wondered what time the gazebo scene took place?
If one assumes dinner was at 8pm, then presumably it didn't take too long, because Elsa said he was very quiet at dinner. Then he wandered off to the balcony, but it wasn't very long before she found him there. So maybe they agreed to call off their engagement at 9pm, following which he went to the gazebo to find Maria. So I'd say that by 9.15 the two were in a clinch, which leaves them a couple of hours to chat and cuddle and...who knows what...till 11pm and bed. But whose bed?!
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 18, 2020 14:08:13 GMT
Whose bed? Good question! Let's say things did go...father than they intended after the gazebo. What room would they end up in? The couch in his study does not seem romantic enough. Her room was in the staff wing, so maybe this was out. His room is the only choice then. Would she have to sneak back to her room in the middle of the night or could she stay and cuddle until morning? what time does the staff get up? What time do the children get up?
Wait, I voted that they waited!! I'm not sure how I'm now plotting which room they ended up in together the night of their first kiss. hahaha.
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Post by indigoblue on May 18, 2020 23:42:01 GMT
I voted that they waited too...but ONLY JUST!! Who knows how close they got to NOT!
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 19, 2020 14:13:26 GMT
In that case, whose bed could still be a valid question. They could still be alone together, but not get carried away. Maybe gazebo night is too aggressive for a sleepover, though, later on in the engagement maybe they figured out a way to outsmart their chaperones for some nighttime snuggle time.
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Post by warmwoollenmittens on May 19, 2020 14:24:54 GMT
I always imagined that they confessed their feelings in the gazebo, stayed there a little while, talking and kissing (oh so much kissing). And then perhaps, it’s getting a little late or a little chilly, so they go to Georg’s study with every intention of keeping things innocent. But given her enthusiasm in the gazebo, I feel like they would maybe get a little heated and carried away in the study before Georg then acted the gentleman and put a stop to it. (I think this is portrayed beautifully in Now When I Want You).
IF however, their feelings were to get the better of them, I always liked the idea that he’d give her a key to his private rooms, leaving the choice up to her, and she’d battle with herself about whether or not to go there, only to give in.
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Post by riana11 on May 22, 2020 23:34:01 GMT
I think that they waited for the wedding night, but I feel that Georg had more control than she did. Everything was so new to her and feeling the rush of all these new feelings, but even so I think that she would have stopped them too at some point from going all the way.
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Post by indigoblue on May 23, 2020 14:12:48 GMT
I can't help feeling that the presence of the baroness packing her little bags in the house would have kept them outside - and calmer - for longer...
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Post by jennifer1983 on Nov 19, 2020 6:45:06 GMT
I voted that they waited. I think Georg was to much of a gentleman to go all the way before the wedding.
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Nov 19, 2020 22:43:12 GMT
Whose bed? Good question! Let's say things did go...father than they intended after the gazebo. What room would they end up in? The couch in his study does not seem romantic enough. Her room was in the staff wing, so maybe this was out. His room is the only choice then. Would she have to sneak back to her room in the middle of the night or could she stay and cuddle until morning? what time does the staff get up? What time do the children get up? Wait, I voted that they waited!! I'm not sure how I'm now plotting which room they ended up in together the night of their first kiss. hahaha. I was combing through this thread (again), and had a plausible theory pop to mind. What if they both went into Georg's room? If they did give into temptation, she would most definitely have to sneak out of his room. The question is how would she do so? Here's where my theory comes into play. I think Georg has various hidden hallways and such, placed throughout the Villa. I remember reading a story awhile back where Maria discovered a hidden hallway and she was caught by Georg (I think). That story, though I forgot who wrote it, got me thinking. Here's why it's plausible: Georg is a man of many mysteries. He would want an escape from something, a quiet place of sorts. Plus, who doesn't like hidden hallways? What do y'all think about this theory?
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Post by ANeedlePullingThread on Nov 19, 2020 22:44:47 GMT
I’m 50/50. In real life, yes. In the movie, R&H want us to believe so In my head? Nah . You have a very passionate young woman discovering what love is, a “dangerously handsome” (as Julie said) Captain who has shown his absolute romantic side, he’s already got 7 kids so we know he likes to “groove”. He’s also been a widower for quite some time, she’s lovely, he’s been silently in love with her, she’s under his roof., the tension between them could be cut with a knife for so long. If they did wait, it was by the skin of their teeth. I may also be projecting heavily- If I were Maria, forget it. “Nun? What nun? I was going to be a nun?”
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 19, 2020 23:52:36 GMT
Hmm: romance, a degree of frustration, corridor creeping...sounds rather likely...but I think I'd rather they just canoodled together, that's enough for me!
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Post by itsdayandnight on Nov 20, 2020 6:34:38 GMT
Love the theories and thoughts!
I also think that they waited, but as pointed out multiple times, the wait was absolutely tortuous for both of them and both have come close to "Losing It" more times than they care to count.
I mean... strong feelings, thrown haphazardly into the unconscious as if it were something dangerous, were finally allowed to be expressed after being forced out. And then there was the overwhelming sensation that they couldn't be together, and then they could, and then them getting engaged within minutes of confessing their love. Honestly, given these, how do you expect them to behave around one another? Dangerous game, tbh, but "righteousness" and belief saved them from completely succumbing, I guess. I would also like to think that they did have a few passionate moments. I really don't think they could have avoided it even if they did try their best to hold onto their control.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Jul 25, 2021 1:21:55 GMT
My grandmother was the MOST Catholic Catholic you could ever meet and not even SHE waited until her wedding
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 25, 2021 23:17:01 GMT
I’m glad Chris&Byng brought this back up, because I somehow missed a lot of this conversation. And I guess I must have voted “no” originally, but I’m going to change my vote and say “yes,” just because I have written it every which way and I guess this rings truest to me. I probably am not giving enough weight to her religious faith. In my stories there is always a hidden staircase that goes to his bedroom. Convenient huh? In the story I”m writing now there is a whole hidden ROOM!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Jul 26, 2021 2:03:41 GMT
From my grandmother's example, I don't obviously know all the details LOL - but she said didn't think it was a sin because they were going to be married and it was close enough to the wedding that if a baby should result, no one would be any wiser.
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galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
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Post by galan on Jul 26, 2021 8:41:55 GMT
I voted "yes", they waited. My thought is that, if you are so Catholic you are trying to become a nun (whether successfully or not is a different question), you are much more likely to stick to the societal norms of the church at the time. If Maria is apologizing for singing outside of the abbey only to later be reminded that rule only applies IN the abbey, I would think anything she believes to be God's rule would be taken very seriously. And while I doubt the Captain would share that same true depth and conviction of faith, I'm unsure how he would balance his position in society, how unusual their relationship is considering it is NOT a disreputable relationship between the employer and the governess, and him being somewhat protective (of both his children and Maria), if he was to disrespect that contemporary norm of the church. And when it comes to protecting Maria, we all know there's a stupid double-standard for men and women; right or wrong (*cough wrong cough*), it exists and is sometimes severe. Chris&Byng, the situation you described with your grandmother is the only situation I can see as plausible, but even then, I still struggle with seeing that between these characters. But all this is just my weak analysis. But as for thought experiments and fluff...I can have as dirty a mind as anyone else.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Jul 26, 2021 23:16:56 GMT
I voted "yes", they waited. My thought is that, if you are so Catholic you are trying to become a nun (whether successfully or not is a different question), you are much more likely to stick to the societal norms of the church at the time. If Maria is apologizing for singing outside of the abbey only to later be reminded that rule only applies IN the abbey, I would think anything she believes to be God's rule would be taken very seriously. And while I doubt the Captain would share that same true depth and conviction of faith, I'm unsure how he would balance his position in society, how unusual their relationship is considering it is NOT a disreputable relationship between the employer and the governess, and him being somewhat protective (of both his children and Maria), if he was to disrespect that contemporary norm of the church. And when it comes to protecting Maria, we all know there's a stupid double-standard for men and women; right or wrong (*cough wrong cough*), it exists and is sometimes severe. Chris&Byng , the situation you described with your grandmother is the only situation I can see as plausible, but even then, I still struggle with seeing that between these characters. But all this is just my weak analysis. But as for thought experiments and fluff...I can have as dirty a mind as anyone else. These are great points! I, too, am in the 'waiting' camp, but I just thought the "Catholic thing" is not always bullet proof! (I say this as someone who also grew up Catholic, no offense intended to anyone out there)
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galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
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Post by galan on Jul 26, 2021 23:44:45 GMT
I voted "yes", they waited. My thought is that, if you are so Catholic you are trying to become a nun (whether successfully or not is a different question), you are much more likely to stick to the societal norms of the church at the time. If Maria is apologizing for singing outside of the abbey only to later be reminded that rule only applies IN the abbey, I would think anything she believes to be God's rule would be taken very seriously. And while I doubt the Captain would share that same true depth and conviction of faith, I'm unsure how he would balance his position in society, how unusual their relationship is considering it is NOT a disreputable relationship between the employer and the governess, and him being somewhat protective (of both his children and Maria), if he was to disrespect that contemporary norm of the church. And when it comes to protecting Maria, we all know there's a stupid double-standard for men and women; right or wrong (*cough wrong cough*), it exists and is sometimes severe. Chris&Byng , the situation you described with your grandmother is the only situation I can see as plausible, but even then, I still struggle with seeing that between these characters. But all this is just my weak analysis. But as for thought experiments and fluff...I can have as dirty a mind as anyone else. These are great points! I, too, am in the 'waiting' camp, but I just thought the "Catholic thing" is not always bullet proof! (I say this as someone who also grew up Catholic, no offense intended to anyone out there) Oh absolutely, I totally understand what you are saying. My father's entire paternal family is Catholic (along with him and his sisters), and in that cluster there were definitely moments of "had to get married". And fortunately, it has usually worked out in the end. (Also occurred in my mother's very Pentecostal family.) I guess my thought remains that if you want to become a nun, your standards of what are acceptable are different. (But you understood that, I'm not that smart of a person!) Although I CAN see what you described as possible (re: no one would ever know), I still struggle with it for these characters.
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 27, 2021 20:07:58 GMT
My mom used to say the same thing as Chris&Byng’s grand mother (although I don’t think my mom actually crossed the line) - that circumstances were different once the wedding was imminent. Also, of course I have a lot of respect for the religious principles, but there have been plenty of conversations about why Maria was at the Abbey in the first place. In her own way she is very spiritual but she doesn’t seem like the pure, chaste type — too passionate for that. (And let’s not forget, the love between a man and a woman is holy too :-)). I guess I can see it both ways …
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