galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Sept 17, 2021 1:28:04 GMT
I enjoy reading stories where they don't wait because it pushes the characters' boundaries, as long as their reaction is in line with their personalities. So, for example, if they do give in to passion, I don't see it becoming a pattern of behavior though I can see no real regret. Realistic wedding nights are my cup of tea. Dreamy ones are basically wish fulfillment on the part of the author, which is lazy writing in my opinion, and exploring all the awkwardness of learning what your partner wants and likes is much more challenging. To say nothing of the extra awkwardness if one of the participants IS a virgin. (That might be a fun thing to write...) But, having said all that, will I read dreamy fluffy ones? Yup, sometimes wish fulfillment is what you need. ETA: Also, this is a slight tangent, but one of the reasons I sometimes have trouble with fluffy dreamy wedding nights is it can be obvious that the writer has no...um...experience? (I'll edit this out if necessary.) I've read a couple where it was really obvious and it just perpetuates misinformation. I think a story can be both fluffy and realistic if done in the right way. As for your slight tangent, I haven't read too many TSOM stories where I find the author to be..uninformed, but I have in other fandoms. I usually just chalk this up to the author being really young (and maybe embarrassed to ask someone to proof read it before posting?), and good for them that they are working these things out writing fanfiction instead of jumping in bed with someone before they are ready. Your experience is mine with a lot of stories, I guess I'm thinking mostly of a specific story and sequel put up recently by one author. Though, those are NOT wedding anything. I read a few chapters of the second and couldn't continue...bleach my brain, just don't delete any work recipes. Oh mylanta, the misinformation. But yes, totally agree people should mentally...play around?...with their favorite characters if they're not ready for more of a relationship. (As far as other fandoms go, I spend time in a very specific time frame of one that lends itself a little more to older readers, 'cause...~1997-2005 and people always forget OG characters in ensemble casts. RIP, Gavin Troy and Mike Logan.) True, fluffiness can go with realism, but especially in a "they waited" scenario, I think there's no avoiding some really intense emotional awkwardness. Not just the newness of the physical situation, but dealing with the fact that fully embracing the future you love and want, you have to fully say goodbye to the future you wanted before. That's not saying Maria would be entering into her new life with regret--at least in the fictional world--but I can only imagine there would be congnitive dissonance. Which I probably spelled wrong. (Trying to draft something based on this whole paragraph.)
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Sept 25, 2021 23:08:56 GMT
galan, I might be repeating myself but I love realistic wedding night stories. I've wanted for some time to write a story about the wedding night of the real M&G based on what she said in her memoir. Talk about inexperience.
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Sept 25, 2021 23:16:12 GMT
galan , I might be repeating myself but I love realistic wedding night stories. I've wanted for some time to write a story about the wedding night of the real M&G based on what she said in her memoir. Talk about inexperience. Oof, that would definitely be interesting. Really should see if they have that book at the library.
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Sept 25, 2021 23:24:39 GMT
galan , I might be repeating myself but I love realistic wedding night stories. I've wanted for some time to write a story about the wedding night of the real M&G based on what she said in her memoir. Talk about inexperience. Oof, that would definitely be interesting. Really should see if they have that book at the library. She really knew nothing. And while the real G clearly had tender feelings toward her, I imagine him being a wee bit more impatient/baffled. Of course he was older and dumpier.
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Sept 26, 2021 0:50:25 GMT
Well, it wasn't at the library, but I did find it on Thrift Books for <$7. So I'll have it for the proper writing of the first big piece I've written in the fandom for a while. Mwahahaha...
|
|
|
Post by Chris&Byng on Sept 26, 2021 1:51:13 GMT
galan , I might be repeating myself but I love realistic wedding night stories. I've wanted for some time to write a story about the wedding night of the real M&G based on what she said in her memoir. Talk about inexperience. Do you think they (the real G & M) had a 'real' wedding night on their wedding night? Or do you think he gave her space to come around? I am sure the sisters told her it was God's will, but who knows...
|
|
|
Post by ANeedlePullingThread on Sept 26, 2021 2:03:24 GMT
galan , I might be repeating myself but I love realistic wedding night stories. I've wanted for some time to write a story about the wedding night of the real M&G based on what she said in her memoir. Talk about inexperience. Do you think they (the real G & M) had a 'real' wedding night on their wedding night? Or do you think he gave her space to come around? I am sure the sisters told her it was God's will, but who knows... In R&H I believe she would have had a “real” wedding night. She seemed very enamored and a quick learner. In real life, the actual MVT did not, well, “give herself” as she said to the real Georg until Christmas when she decided it was God’s will. She said they considered it their “real anniversary” after that
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Sept 26, 2021 2:21:15 GMT
Do you think they (the real G & M) had a 'real' wedding night on their wedding night? Or do you think he gave her space to come around? I am sure the sisters told her it was God's will, but who knows... I see both sides of it, having caught some glimpses of things for free on Google Books ahead of a proper book making its way here. If you truly care for someone, you allow for that space, consent, enthusiasm, etc. But even with caring on G's side and anger on M's side because she wasn't happy in her situation...this was the 1920's. If they were all able to take a train to Italy to escape Nazi Austria, as it were, because they were all Italian citizens...that gives me pause as to what rights women had in Austria/Italy at that moment, even if their marriage happened 15 years earlier. The children were obviously Italian citizens due to G's being born where he was and all the geopolitical shenanigans after WWI, but if M was an Italian citizen (would like to confirm with a source off of Wikipedia), it basically came down to her identity and person becoming her husband's. That's a massive cultural power imbalance, regardless of individual feelings. So I think at least something happened, but what...there's a whole range as to what.
|
|
MeltIntoSpring
Junior Member
"Enchanting little ritual. Something you learned at the.. Abbey?"
Posts: 75
|
Post by MeltIntoSpring on Sept 28, 2021 22:40:52 GMT
I'm so glad you said so galan, I think exactly the same. Something definitely happened, but did they go 'all the way'? I'm not so sure. I have just uploaded the next chapter for my latest story (the chapter after this one is where I have written a T and M version), and I have even asked my readers whether or not they would prefer an T or M rating (I know what I'm hoping for). If the answer turns out to be M, then I think there's many out there that like or believe that they were doing more than just kissing or dancing the landler throughout their entire engagement.
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 30, 2021 19:38:06 GMT
Oof, that would definitely be interesting. Really should see if they have that book at the library. She really knew nothing. And while the real G clearly had tender feelings toward her, I imagine him being a wee bit more impatient/baffled. Of course he was older and dumpier. I have not read this book. What does "nothing" mean exactly?
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Oct 18, 2021 21:24:24 GMT
Oof, that would definitely be interesting. Really should see if they have that book at the library. She really knew nothing. And while the real G clearly had tender feelings toward her, I imagine him being a wee bit more impatient/baffled. Of course he was older and dumpier. I tried to delete my own comment, but I can't be bothered to turn off my pop-up blocker to check that everything isn't crazy. Currently digging into to both Maria's memoir and her autobiography (all the research for the things I can't publish whilst I procrastinate on the things I might be able to, it's not my fault Seattle hasn't reopened the Fremont branch library because of COVID, better safe than sorry). She definitely says she's confused about his love for her, and that when she understood it, she was angry and wanted to tell God the next day. (At least that's how I read those sentences.) I definitely think the movie, as much as possible given all the changes they made, tracks from real life, so even though we have to allow differences in feelings, we probably should allow for similarities in knowledge. This makes me double-down that, in my opinion, SOMETHING happened on their wedding night--room for interpretation as far as what--and Maria was at least uncomfortable about it. But I could easily be a crazy person.
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Oct 18, 2021 21:48:07 GMT
here are some quotes from the memoir which tend to make me agree with galan. "... and then, of course, there wasn't any question of having children. I was only to bring up those which he already had. This was some forty years ago when there was next to no s*x education. I had, of course, studied in college how babies came about and are eventually born. But I made one fatal mistake: I thought it only happens if you want children. . . as far as I was concerned, I wasn't really leaving Nonnberg completely, I was only extending my leave of absence. I was so convinced about all of this that the night before our wedding, I still said to the captain, "Georg, I still think it wouldn't be quite necessary to get married only to bring up your children." I still remember how he looked at me so very lovingly and put his hand on mine and squeezed it a little bit. That was his answer - except I didn't understand it. When I did understand it - it was too late. Then I was in a terrific inner turmoil I felt betrayed by the One to whom I had vowed my life and my future, whose will I was eager to do, and of whose faithfulness I was so sure . . . Christ had give me, his bride, to the Baron! I was furious ... I had asked my new husband to postpone our honeymoon because one of the boys had a high fever and I wouldn't have felt comfortable away from he children. I had even suggested that he go ahead on our honeymoon, which he politely declined, telling me we could go later."
She goes on to describe how angry she was at God for abandoning her, but eventually her heart heals, as Christmas approaches she lets God back into her life and "from that Christmas on, life was altogether different. I understood more and better my husband's love, and by and by I learned to love hi more than I have ever loved before or after. For the rest of all our years together we always celebrated our wedding anniversary on Christmas day."
So. I was wrong to say she knew nothing, but she didn't know enough. (and I could still write a story with bewildered impatient Georg if I wanted to). I always read this to mean that their marriage was consumated on the wedding night or thereabouts, and that Christmas was more about making her peace with the marriage, but I might be wrong. what do you think?
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Oct 19, 2021 2:48:48 GMT
So. I was wrong to say she knew nothing, but she didn't know enough. (and I could still write a story with bewildered impatient Georg if I wanted to). I always read this to mean that their marriage was consumated on the wedding night or thereabouts, and that Christmas was more about making her peace with the marriage, but I might be wrong. what do you think? That would be an excellent story. But anywho... Your interpretation is how I read those pages. I've said it before, the power that men and women have in relationships even now is often out of balance, and it was so much worse back then. So, no matter how he felt about Maria--whether he was properly and truly in love with her, merely had somewhat kind feelings for her in addition to wanting her to be a new mother to his children, or something in between--Georg grew up in a time and place where he was entitled to expect things from his new wife, and her feelings were irrelevant. Given the way things are written in both her memoir and autobiography, it reads that he was kind about things and gentle--though maybe I'm being an optimist for once--but that Maria's worldview and regrets coming into her marriage pretty well destroyed any newlywed happiness for a while. (Note to self: keep working on the realistic wedding night scenario, I opened that file today and it wasn't nearly as bad as I remembered.)
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Oct 19, 2021 9:58:23 GMT
So. I was wrong to say she knew nothing, but she didn't know enough. (and I could still write a story with bewildered impatient Georg if I wanted to). I always read this to mean that their marriage was consumated on the wedding night or thereabouts, and that Christmas was more about making her peace with the marriage, but I might be wrong. what do you think? That would be an excellent story. But anywho... Your interpretation is how I read those pages. I've said it before, the power that men and women have in relationships even now is often out of balance, and it was so much worse back then. So, no matter how he felt about Maria--whether he was properly and truly in love with her, merely had somewhat kind feelings for her in addition to wanting her to be a new mother to his children, or something in between--Georg grew up in a time and place where he was entitled to expect things from his new wife, and her feelings were irrelevant. Given the way things are written in both her memoir and autobiography, it reads that he was kind about things and gentle--though maybe I'm being an optimist for once--but that Maria's worldview and regrets coming into her marriage pretty well destroyed any newlywed happiness for a while. (Note to self: keep working on the realistic wedding night scenario, I opened that file today and it wasn't nearly as bad as I remembered.) would love to read your take ono it, galan, consider this a note of encouragement! I had trouble sleeping last night and, as I often do, turned to weaving TSOM stories in my mind, and this one kept me quite occupied. Even with the skeleton in place as above, lots to figure out .
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Oct 19, 2021 10:49:09 GMT
would love to read your take ono it, galan , consider this a note of encouragement! I had trouble sleeping last night and, as I often do, turned to weaving TSOM stories in my mind, and this one kept me quite occupied. Even with the skeleton in place as above, lots to figure out . Feel the sleep struggle on a spiritual level, as in it's my Monday and I'm awake at 3:30 in the morning...as I often am. It will probably be a while before I really deal with that story again, between other writing, SRW chicken and biscuit purgatory, and general laziness. Probably won't see too much work until Christmas, when I (will probably) go back home to Ohio...yay. *insert sarcasm here, I truly do not like that SW Ohio is the place I am from, I don't live there anymore for many reasons* My computer is currently a piece of garbage, so I'll probably just do what I did the last time I visited the Kitsap Peninsula: take a very empty spiral notebook and a pen.
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Oct 19, 2021 23:31:42 GMT
I loved the bit about her telling Georg to go on the honeymoon on his own!
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Oct 20, 2021 0:05:53 GMT
I loved the bit about her telling Georg to go on the honeymoon on his own! Right? I think that just underscores what augiesannie said earlier, that while she had some knowledge of mechanics, she had no clue about the emotional side of things. Or at least that's how I'm reading.
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Oct 20, 2021 21:09:29 GMT
here are some quotes from the memoir which tend to make me agree with galan . "... and then, of course, there wasn't any question of having children. I was only to bring up those which he already had. This was some forty years ago when there was next to no s*x education. I had, of course, studied in college how babies came about and are eventually born. But I made one fatal mistake: I thought it only happens if you want children. . . as far as I was concerned, I wasn't really leaving Nonnberg completely, I was only extending my leave of absence. I was so convinced about all of this that the night before our wedding, I still said to the captain, "Georg, I still think it wouldn't be quite necessary to get married only to bring up your children." I still remember how he looked at me so very lovingly and put his hand on mine and squeezed it a little bit. That was his answer - except I didn't understand it. When I did understand it - it was too late. Then I was in a terrific inner turmoil I felt betrayed by the One to whom I had vowed my life and my future, whose will I was eager to do, and of whose faithfulness I was so sure . . . Christ had give me, his bride, to the Baron! I was furious ... I had asked my new husband to postpone our honeymoon because one of the boys had a high fever and I wouldn't have felt comfortable away from he children. I had even suggested that he go ahead on our honeymoon, which he politely declined, telling me we could go later."
She goes on to describe how angry she was at God for abandoning her, but eventually her heart heals, as Christmas approaches she lets God back into her life and "from that Christmas on, life was altogether different. I understood more and better my husband's love, and by and by I learned to love hi more than I have ever loved before or after. For the rest of all our years together we always celebrated our wedding anniversary on Christmas day."
So. I was wrong to say she knew nothing, but she didn't know enough. (and I could still write a story with bewildered impatient Georg if I wanted to). I always read this to mean that their marriage was consumated on the wedding night or thereabouts, and that Christmas was more about making her peace with the marriage, but I might be wrong. what do you think? Wow. Thank you for posting. I'm not sure where to start with this. S*x has an asterik in it, like it's a swear word and is later referred to as an italicized "it". I am always shocked at the lack of sex education older generations of people had going into marriage. It makes me sad, really. Sex is supposed to be awesome, but is likely terrifying if you don't know what is happening or were under the assumption that it wouldn't be happening to you. I feel terrible for her! She is pushed into a marriage that she doesn't want but concedes because she is willing to help a widower raise his 7 kids. But since she doesn't want kids of her own, she is assuming that she will never have to do "it" and can return to the life she wanted to live after the kids are raised. It sounds like the news that she was doing "it" got sprung on her on the wedding night (when it was too late to back out). So now her life plan to become a nun is no longer in the cards because she won't be pure enough to return to the convent. She is (understandably) pissed off at God because she wanted to spend her life serving Him at the abbey and instead she had to get married have sex. Aak! I'm glad it all worked out, but yikes! I definitely prefer the fanfiction version of things in my own head to the reality of the situation.. Hi reverendcaptain, just to make you feel a little bit better, the asterisk came from me. To keep the censorship bots from reporting us or making trouble for us. She spelled the actual word out in the book. But I agree with you about the rest of it. I stole some of this story - Maria feeling betrayed by the loss of her vocation - for a story I wrote. I definitely agree with you about fanfiction being better. Hmmm so why do I speak of writing a realistic wedding night? Maybe I am attracted by the challenge of starting with an imperfect Georg and then redeeming him. I am ALWAYS writing about that, it seems.
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Oct 20, 2021 23:06:43 GMT
I just deleted my post to be safe. If you want to delete your reply to me, go for it. Then there will be nothing for the censorship bots to flag us on. Although, now I am wondering if I have posted the "s word" anywhere else on this board! I don't think so, usually I am less direct.
I still feel terrible for real life Maria! It is probably a testament to their actual compatibility that it only took her until Christmas to get over her whole life plan being destroyed by a man that she didn't really want to marry. I might hold a grudge forever on that one..
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Oct 20, 2021 23:10:37 GMT
I just deleted my post to be safe. If you want to delete your reply to me, go for it. Then there will be nothing for the censorship bots to flag us on. Although, now I am wondering if I have posted the "s word" anywhere else on this board! I don't think so, usually I am less direct. I still feel terrible for real life Maria! It is probably a testament to their actual compatibility that it only took her until Christmas to get over her whole life plan being destroyed by a man that she didn't really want to marry. I might hold a grudge forever on that one.. Sorry about the post - don’t worry about this kind of thing too much, I just happened to think of it. And yes, she was more forgiving than I might have been!
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Oct 20, 2021 23:43:33 GMT
augiesannie and reverendcaptain , I definitely shudder to think about what might have happened in real life, but I lean toward it being the "best case worst case" scenario, balancing the fact that if you care about someone (again, room for debate for how far down the line he was, not much for her), you don't intentionally hurt them with the reality of life a hundred years ago. The ability to forgive quickly is definitely something that informs that opinion. But at the same time, based on a professor's recommendation first year of college, I read The Boundaries Of Her Body, a big ol' book of essays on women's rights and it was truly horrific, and that was just focused on the US. Early 20th century Austria, a somewhat aristocratic household that would rather things stay the same rather than march forward into the modern era, and a religious context that says that just as Christ is the head of the church, so is the man the head of the household (I almost had indigestion typing that clause)...There's no getting around that it had to be somewhat unpleasant. The comment of the loss of her vocation/dream as a nun as a result of that situation is definitely spot on, currently working a long piece that will incorporate that sense in a different way. Might upset people again, so that's familiar territory, lollerskares, Batman.
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Oct 21, 2021 0:23:42 GMT
augiesannie and reverendcaptain , I definitely shudder to think about what might have happened in real life, but I lean toward it being the "best case worst case" scenario, balancing the fact that if you care about someone (again, room for debate for how far down the line he was, not much for her), you don't intentionally hurt them with the reality of life a hundred years ago. The ability to forgive quickly is definitely something that informs that opinion. But at the same time, based on a professor's recommendation first year of college, I read The Boundaries Of Her Body, a big ol' book of essays on women's rights and it was truly horrific, and that was just focused on the US. Early 20th century Austria, a somewhat aristocratic household that would rather things stay the same rather than march forward into the modern era, and a religious context that says that just as Christ is the head of the church, so is the man the head of the household (I almost had indigestion typing that clause)...There's no getting around that it had to be somewhat unpleasant. The comment of the loss of her vocation/dream as a nun as a result of that situation is definitely spot on, currently working a long piece that will incorporate that sense in a different way. Might upset people again, so that's familiar territory, lollerskares, Batman. I'm with you on this being the best case scenario. He did care about her, and I'm sure was grateful to have her raising his kids, both of which would make me think he would be patient and gentle and understanding. It just blows my mind that neither of them communicated their expectations about the arrangement and/or life goals until after the wedding. Maybe she was happy to have an excuse to try to get out of the honeymoon if the wedding night was traumatic.
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Oct 21, 2021 0:43:44 GMT
augiesannie and reverendcaptain , I definitely shudder to think about what might have happened in real life, but I lean toward it being the "best case worst case" scenario, balancing the fact that if you care about someone (again, room for debate for how far down the line he was, not much for her), you don't intentionally hurt them with the reality of life a hundred years ago. The ability to forgive quickly is definitely something that informs that opinion. But at the same time, based on a professor's recommendation first year of college, I read The Boundaries Of Her Body, a big ol' book of essays on women's rights and it was truly horrific, and that was just focused on the US. Early 20th century Austria, a somewhat aristocratic household that would rather things stay the same rather than march forward into the modern era, and a religious context that says that just as Christ is the head of the church, so is the man the head of the household (I almost had indigestion typing that clause)...There's no getting around that it had to be somewhat unpleasant. The comment of the loss of her vocation/dream as a nun as a result of that situation is definitely spot on, currently working a long piece that will incorporate that sense in a different way. Might upset people again, so that's familiar territory, lollerskares, Batman. I'm with you on this being the best case scenario. He did care about her, and I'm sure was grateful to have her raising his kids, both of which would make me think he would be patient and gentle and understanding. It just blows my mind that neither of them communicated their expectations about the arrangement and/or life goals until after the wedding. Maybe she was happy to have an excuse to try to get out of the honeymoon if the wedding night was traumatic. To be honest, I don't think the lack of communication is actually that surprising. They spent the vast majority of their engagement separated apart from letters so far as I've read, this was an even more taboo subject than it is now, and I wonder if there was some willful ignorance on Maria's part (much experience with that, it's an amazingly powerful force), leading to not wanting to talk about what might happen to just push back against it and ignore it. If you understand the science behind it and have experienced seeing at least a few loving relationships that produced children (reading memory says that's correct, though not many at all, could be wrong, I'm wrong very often), I think you must have some inkling of putting those pieces together, 'cause she's clearly an intelligent human being. Denial is a powerful thing, and if you're committed to something that is the antithesis of the situation that you currently find yourself in, denial is a useful but maladaptive coping machinism. (Again, significant experience.)
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Oct 22, 2021 2:01:05 GMT
Another thought, about the real life story, not the film. I just went back and reread a few pages of her memoir. Her description of the ending of the things with Princess Yvonne and how he reacts to his comment about engagement after the young children find her...Hmm. There's clearly a lot of white male privilege here (a very popular topic of conversation/podcasts in the kitchen where I work), but it also reads like true affection, not just gratitude that you'll help me raise my kids. And the comment that "We'll never be apart again"...Once more, hmm, that reads as more than just wanting her to be a new mother. It's not something on her side, but if it's affection/love on his side, is that enough to set aside your white male Christian privilege to prioritize the woman you've recently married above the rights you have as a man? And yet again, her autobiography where she's upset about finally understanding his love for her...It's currently a kerfuffle in my brain.
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Oct 24, 2021 22:40:47 GMT
I'm not thinking so much that he'd be impatient or unkind as ... baffled, maybe.
|
|
|
Post by reverendcaptain on Nov 1, 2021 21:37:15 GMT
I'm not sure that he'd be baffled only because he already knows that she doesn't get it. This section: [the night before our wedding, I still said to the captain, "Georg, I still think it wouldn't be quite necessary to get married only to bring up your children." I still remember how he looked at me so very lovingly and put his hand on mine and squeezed it a little bit. That was his answer - except I didn't understand it. When I did understand it - it was too late.] It is obvious that she does not know what she is signing up for. It is surprising to me that in this moment, instead of a hand squeeze and loving look, he wouldn't have said "No, we do have to get married because here are the things that I am needing out of this relationship (insert specific expectations)"
I guess people in this time are not as direct as we are now.
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Nov 13, 2021 23:43:23 GMT
Do you think she was totally naive about the full meaning of getting married?
I can't remember exactly how old she was when her parents died, but didn't she live with an unpleasant (abusive?) uncle for a bit? Then if she went into the convent, I can't see where she got any fireside chats on the birds and the bees...
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Nov 14, 2021 0:34:35 GMT
I love that this is, like, the thread that will not die.
|
|
galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
|
Post by galan on Nov 14, 2021 2:08:17 GMT
Do you think she was totally naive about the full meaning of getting married? I can't remember exactly how old she was when her parents died, but didn't she live with an unpleasant (abusive?) uncle for a bit? Then if she went into the convent, I can't see where she got any fireside chats on the birds and the bees... I think so. In her autobiography, she mentions that she didn't understand why she and Georg needed to get married if she was just going to bring up his children, with no question of more children, and that she understood the process of how children came into being, but only if she wanted children. I can't imagine she understood everything, especially if she thought it was a marriage merely to stop people from talking until the youngest could take care of themselves (reasonable assumption based on what she wrote). I can't imagine she knew what was coming. A thought did just occur to me: what exactly would Catholic marriage vows have been like in that timeframe? Just something I remember my parents mentioning. They got married in the 80s--my dad is Catholic, my mother was raised Pentecostal and is now pretty well generic Protestant--and even in their Pentecostal wedding, they made the deliberate choice both to say "love and honor" and my mother did not say "obey". If you believe in following the will of god and have made the promise to obey your in-a-few-minutes-husband before god, does that stop you from complaining in the moment? A thought experiment.
|
|
|
Post by ANeedlePullingThread on Nov 19, 2021 1:45:43 GMT
Do you think she was totally naive about the full meaning of getting married? I can't remember exactly how old she was when her parents died, but didn't she live with an unpleasant (abusive?) uncle for a bit? Then if she went into the convent, I can't see where she got any fireside chats on the birds and the bees... I think so. In her autobiography, she mentions that she didn't understand why she and Georg needed to get married if she was just going to bring up his children, with no question of more children, and that she understood the process of how children came into being, but only if she wanted children. I can't imagine she understood everything, especially if she thought it was a marriage merely to stop people from talking until the youngest could take care of themselves (reasonable assumption based on what she wrote). I can't imagine she knew what was coming. A thought did just occur to me: what exactly would Catholic marriage vows have been like in that timeframe? Just something I remember my parents mentioning. They got married in the 80s--my dad is Catholic, my mother was raised Pentecostal and is now pretty well generic Protestant--and even in their Pentecostal wedding, they made the deliberate choice both to say "love and honor" and my mother did not say "obey". If you believe in following the will of god and have made the promise to obey your in-a-few-minutes-husband before god, does that stop you from complaining in the moment? A thought experiment. In the book Maria said she believed she only had to marry him for the summer until the children return to school “And I congratulated myself of that”. I wonder if she did know that she was expected to be a wife, but was in heavy enough denial over the loss of her vocation that, as one person said, caused her to be willfully clueless to an extent. At age 21, her safe space was the Abbey. Her first bit of affection after her “wicked childhood” was kisses from the children. It’s heartbreaking. You’re right, to get past her loss and trauma in only a few weeks is amazing. She said she was so mad at God. Then she went to Christmas mass after faking headaches every Sunday. She looked at the infant Jesus in the manger and said “he was a baby with his arms outstretched, how can anyone be angry with a baby”. And that was it. “I gave myself to him in every way” I believe she said. Thus her wedding night was Christmas. Story possibilities there.
|
|