galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
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Post by galan on Nov 20, 2021 1:26:33 GMT
I think so. In her autobiography, she mentions that she didn't understand why she and Georg needed to get married if she was just going to bring up his children, with no question of more children, and that she understood the process of how children came into being, but only if she wanted children. I can't imagine she understood everything, especially if she thought it was a marriage merely to stop people from talking until the youngest could take care of themselves (reasonable assumption based on what she wrote). I can't imagine she knew what was coming. A thought did just occur to me: what exactly would Catholic marriage vows have been like in that timeframe? Just something I remember my parents mentioning. They got married in the 80s--my dad is Catholic, my mother was raised Pentecostal and is now pretty well generic Protestant--and even in their Pentecostal wedding, they made the deliberate choice both to say "love and honor" and my mother did not say "obey". If you believe in following the will of god and have made the promise to obey your in-a-few-minutes-husband before god, does that stop you from complaining in the moment? A thought experiment. In the book Maria said she believed she only had to marry him for the summer until the children return to school “And I congratulated myself of that”. I wonder if she did know that she was expected to be a wife, but was in heavy enough denial over the loss of her vocation that, as one person said, caused her to be willfully clueless to an extent. At age 21, her safe space was the Abbey. Her first bit of affection after her “wicked childhood” was kisses from the children. It’s heartbreaking. You’re right, to get past her loss and trauma in only a few weeks is amazing. She said she was so mad at God. Then she went to Christmas mass after faking headaches every Sunday. She looked at the infant Jesus in the manger and said “he was a baby with his arms outstretched, how can anyone be angry with a baby”. And that was it. “I gave myself to him in every way” I believe she said. Thus her wedding night was Christmas. Story possibilities there. Oh, yes, I'm still working through her books and I know what she expected--or convinced herself to expect and there's definitely room for the conversation about willful ignorance. It's her stated desire to do the will of God combined with making that promise to obey her new husband in front of God that makes me wonder...things. Because she said she was angry and didn't want God anymore, not that she rejected his authority or power. (I'm cringing typing this for many reasons.) To my mind, those are different things. She basically ran away from her foster family a few years earlier, so what made her stay if she really didn't want that? Obviously the children are a thing, but if you're expected to be a wife in every way--the complete antithesis of what you desperately wanted--would that be enough? I don't know. (But again, lots of story possibilities.)
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 20, 2021 16:47:45 GMT
I think so. In her autobiography, she mentions that she didn't understand why she and Georg needed to get married if she was just going to bring up his children, with no question of more children, and that she understood the process of how children came into being, but only if she wanted children. I can't imagine she understood everything, especially if she thought it was a marriage merely to stop people from talking until the youngest could take care of themselves (reasonable assumption based on what she wrote). I can't imagine she knew what was coming. A thought did just occur to me: what exactly would Catholic marriage vows have been like in that timeframe? Just something I remember my parents mentioning. They got married in the 80s--my dad is Catholic, my mother was raised Pentecostal and is now pretty well generic Protestant--and even in their Pentecostal wedding, they made the deliberate choice both to say "love and honor" and my mother did not say "obey". If you believe in following the will of god and have made the promise to obey your in-a-few-minutes-husband before god, does that stop you from complaining in the moment? A thought experiment. In the book Maria said she believed she only had to marry him for the summer until the children return to school “And I congratulated myself of that”. I wonder if she did know that she was expected to be a wife, but was in heavy enough denial over the loss of her vocation that, as one person said, caused her to be willfully clueless to an extent. At age 21, her safe space was the Abbey. Her first bit of affection after her “wicked childhood” was kisses from the children. It’s heartbreaking. You’re right, to get past her loss and trauma in only a few weeks is amazing. She said she was so mad at God. Then she went to Christmas mass after faking headaches every Sunday. She looked at the infant Jesus in the manger and said “he was a baby with his arms outstretched, how can anyone be angry with a baby”. And that was it. “I gave myself to him in every way” I believe she said. Thus her wedding night was Christmas. Story possibilities there. YUM!!!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 20, 2023 15:21:17 GMT
I know it didn't happen in real life, but in movie universe..
Do you think Georg would have had a private conversation with Maria during their engagement to see if she had any concerns or questions about wedding night activities before the actual wedding night? He is clearly the more experienced person here, and he knows her background. Wouldn't he want to make her more comfortable about something that he knows is so foreign to her? I'm just trying to put myself in his shoes. I would hate the idea of society women filling my soon-to-be wife's head with "lay back and think of England" kinds of ideas (or worse, her knowing nothing and freaking out) when I could easily explain the reality of what is going to happen myself.
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 20, 2023 17:15:39 GMT
Yes yes yes reverendcaptain, I love that idea and have written about that conversation different ways. Or more accurately, I imagine him bringing it up pretty consistently - acknowledges that she doesn’t have a mother/sisters, encourages her to ask him questions, reassures her and tells her not to be nervous, whatever. The real possibilities lie in how she answers and what she really does know/expect. Which is why the above conversation was so interesting to me.
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 22, 2023 23:26:19 GMT
I just love the idea that you (on the other side of the world) also call it 'lying back and thinking of ENGLAND'!
I thought only we in England said that! Haha!
I can't bear to think that he wouldn't talk to her about it, and also it would be such a bonding thing for them both, to have that conversation, that I will say 'Yes, yes, YES' too. (Although that sounds a little like the outcome, no?)
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 28, 2023 0:35:52 GMT
I just love the idea that you (on the other side of the world) also call it 'lying back and thinking of ENGLAND'! I thought only we in England said that! Haha! I can't bear to think that he wouldn't talk to her about it, and also it would be such a bonding thing for them both, to have that conversation, that I will say 'Yes, yes, YES' too. (Although that sounds a little like the outcome, no?) Funny, Indigo. Until I read your post, I thought only Americans said that. I always thought it originated from people coming over from England and being advised to think about their lovely homeland as a distraction, and then it just got passed down through generations to people who had no actual memory of England to "think of". Upon googling this, I found that it originated in England in the early 1900s. I still can't quite figure out if thinking of England meant thinking of the beautiful countryside as a distraction or if thinking of England meant remembering the patriotic duty to give England more citizens. Maybe both? It's interesting that no other countries have jumped on this bandwagon. You never hear "Lie back and think of China/Poland/Brazil/etc." It's always England no matter who is saying it.
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 1, 2023 22:14:29 GMT
I just love the idea that you (on the other side of the world) also call it 'lying back and thinking of ENGLAND'! I thought only we in England said that! Haha! I can't bear to think that he wouldn't talk to her about it, and also it would be such a bonding thing for them both, to have that conversation, that I will say 'Yes, yes, YES' too. (Although that sounds a little like the outcome, no?) Funny, Indigo. Until I read your post, I thought only Americans said that. I always thought it originated from people coming over from England and being advised to think about their lovely homeland as a distraction, and then it just got passed down through generations to people who had no actual memory of England to "think of". Upon googling this, I found that it originated in England in the early 1900s. I still can't quite figure out if thinking of England meant thinking of the beautiful countryside as a distraction or if thinking of England meant remembering the patriotic duty to give England more citizens. Maybe both? It's interesting that no other countries have jumped on this bandwagon. You never hear "Lie back and think of China/Poland/Brazil/etc." It's always England no matter who is saying it. Actually I was afraid, indigoblue, that you would say that in England they tell people to lie back and think of the U.S. (or whatever). ROFL “too much like the outcome.” I think it means “do your patriotic duty,” right?
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 3, 2023 22:02:04 GMT
Yes - even though you may not exactly be enjoying it.
Which makes me consider whether this applied to either of our heroines/hero in TSOM? Was the reason CP had cold feet about Elsa because either of them felt the need to lie back and think of England? (or Austria, perhaps?) Especially if the activity in question had been magical with Agathe...
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Post by helenaserdaigle on Aug 6, 2023 20:57:35 GMT
I would think that Georg (and Elsa) knew what they were getting into on the intimacy front -- in other words, I always thought that they'd actually been lovers before they got engaged. Elsa, as a widow, would have had significantly more freedom that a young, unmarried woman like Maria. Of course, that's only my interpretation! We all seem to agree that G&M waited until after they got married, but what about G&E?
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 7, 2023 23:10:44 GMT
Yes, I agree, thinking of Elsa on the balcony, she is well-versed in slinky body language, and is clearly very 'familiar' with Georg... after a few years of (presumed) celibacy on Georg's part and perhaps the same for Elsa, the instant attraction between them may well have simmered over, and they may have ended up between the sheets together.
All the more ironic when he slips away in the direction of a nun!
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 8, 2023 20:35:06 GMT
I would think that Georg (and Elsa) knew what they were getting into on the intimacy front -- in other words, I always thought that they'd actually been lovers before they got engaged. Elsa, as a widow, would have had significantly more freedom that a young, unmarried woman like Maria. Of course, that's only my interpretation! We all seem to agree that G&M waited until after they got married, but what about G&E? see this poll (I think there might be another post about this somewhere .... ) and join in! were E&G lovers?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Aug 24, 2023 19:39:41 GMT
The E&G thread has an "It's complicated" option. In retrospect, I should have made that a choice here too. There are many different ways to interpret what "waited" actually means. There's "things never went any farther than kisses in the gazebo" waiting, and there's "things went really far down the line but they still technically waited" waiting. And everywhere in between. I think we have done a good job covering that in this thread, I just wish I would have given everyone the opportunity to vote in the gray area, and I can't figure out how to change it now.
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 24, 2023 21:53:25 GMT
You could redo it with lots more options...! More fun for us!!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Aug 24, 2023 23:18:03 GMT
Oh boy. If I did this, I might need some suggestions, or at least some boundaries. I could get easily carried away with possibilities...
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 25, 2023 21:49:11 GMT
Oh, we wouldn't mind...
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 29, 2023 22:32:51 GMT
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