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Post by utility_singer on Feb 28, 2014 11:49:58 GMT
It was a very subtle way for Elsa to let him know what she'd seen, and needs to be part of the entire exchange for context, or it doesn't really make sense. I see it as them having had a conversation about how he didn't really like parties. She would obviously have planned the whole thing (remember his statement to her about being the 'perfect hostess'), invited people she wanted to meet/know better, even invited Herr Zeller. Then he tries to deflect her with his "a bit chilly out, don't you think?" and she pokes him again with, "I don't know, it seemed rather warm to me", meaning (here's the "obviously") she'd seen how heated things got between them while they were dancing. That's why he gives the uncomfortable smile and tugs at his collar.
Just like the "what a lovely couple you make" while they were still outside. That was a dig at Maria, an attempt to embarass her about having danced with a man when she's supposed to become a nun.
To me every exchange between E and G from Edelweiss on is an attempt by her to keep him away from M.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 12:51:32 GMT
Yes, I like the ideas of every exchange that Elsa makes is a big of a dig at Maria or at Georg's interest at Maria. I guess what I was trying to read in to (maybe too much) was the "needless worrying" about the party form Georg. Yes, it could be the fact that he doesn't like parties, although he seemed a bit excited/happy about the idea when it was presentation to him after Edelweiss, although that in itself may have been to distract from the steaming looks across the room that he shared with Maria. I don't know....
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Post by lemacd on Feb 28, 2014 12:57:54 GMT
I think it just implies that Georg was not a big fan of parties. You might get that impression, too, when they are walking by the lake and he is talking about sipping champagne in glittering salons, bores he detests, and waltzes by strauss, etc... after all, the party wasn't his idea, not that he really tries to dissuade her when she brought it up. maybe because the children were so excited about the idea. anyway, that is all i got out of it. she was teasing him about that and getting in a jab about him dancing with the governess. typical of her to bring it up lightheartedly and joke. she pretty much complains about everything that way. the harmonica thing, for example... his being quiet at dinner... a little thing called boarding school. if elsa is making a joke, best know she's ticked, Captain.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 13:04:30 GMT
Yes, I love all your ideas. It is just that line has been bugging me for the longest time. It is nice to have some viewpoints around it.
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Post by utility_singer on Feb 28, 2014 13:34:36 GMT
I agree---I don't think he was excited about the party as much as 1)the children were excited about it and 2)E kind of put him on the spot by saying "I think it is time I met your friends, and they met me". It wasn't really the time to say, "yeah, I don't think so" and have THAT conversation, you know?
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 1, 2014 1:04:50 GMT
I agree with all these smart ideas - and that there probably was some backstory for that line in addition to her wanting to call out his dance with Maria. Remember that in the play, the party is even more awkward, with half the guests not talking to the other half for political reasons. So one can imagine that he wasn't anticipating a very pleasant evening. The thing is, why does he act so guilty? It's time for the children to go to bed, etc, and his trying to whistle away her jabs at Maria. I mean, I KNOW why, but he makes me mad.
Personally I always thought "what a lovely couple you make" sounded weird because surely she's not implying they're a COUPLE. I guess she means, they're a pair, like in ice-dancing.
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 1, 2014 1:22:30 GMT
I agree with all these smart ideas - and that there probably was some backstory for that line in addition to her wanting to call out his dance with Maria. Remember that in the play, the party is even more awkward, with half the guests not talking to the other half for political reasons. So one can imagine that he wasn't anticipating a very pleasant evening. The thing is, why does he act so guilty? It's time for the children to go to bed, etc, and his trying to whistle away her jabs at Maria. I mean, I KNOW why, but he makes me mad. Personally I always thought "what a lovely couple you make" sounded weird because surely she's not implying they're a COUPLE. I guess she means, they're a pair, like in ice-dancing. Yeah, not his best moment. For such a brave man, he certainly could have told her to knock it off. Regarding "what a lovely couple you make", I do think she is trying to remind G how ridiculous his being with the governess would be. Almost to embarrass HIM at that point. That's how I take it, anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 1:22:46 GMT
Yes, the "what a lovely couple you make" line. I've always taken that one to be more of 'lets get the dagger out and stab and twist it in' (metaphorically, of course). Almost like it is adding to the awkwardness of the situation. So Laendler happens, they gaze into each others eyes, everyone seeing the sparks between them like an extension of what had happened at the end of Edelweiss. Maria backs away in shock/disbelief or whatever, Georg looks totally rattled, Maria blushes, Brigitta tells EVERYONE about the blush (probably making the situation worse), then Elsa puts in that little dig, setting it up for the later conversation in the bedroom. ooo, a lot of awesomeness.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2014 1:27:02 GMT
I don't think I had ever thought about it as the comment made to embarrass HIM. I had always assumed that it was directed towards Maria. I guess the next comment after that "all that needless worrying Georg, you thought you wouldn't find a friend at the party" then makes a bit more sense if she set out to have a dig at HIM.
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Post by lemacd on Mar 1, 2014 1:35:36 GMT
I agree with all these smart ideas - and that there probably was some backstory for that line in addition to her wanting to call out his dance with Maria. Remember that in the play, the party is even more awkward, with half the guests not talking to the other half for political reasons. So one can imagine that he wasn't anticipating a very pleasant evening. The thing is, why does he act so guilty? It's time for the children to go to bed, etc, and his trying to whistle away her jabs at Maria. I mean, I KNOW why, but he makes me mad. Personally I always thought "what a lovely couple you make" sounded weird because surely she's not implying they're a COUPLE. I guess she means, they're a pair, like in ice-dancing. i never considered that G would understand that throwing a party like that would mean inviting nazi sympathizers into his home, that he would be a minority voice in his own home. that is a very interesting angle for the "you would have a friend at the party". could this also be elsa taking a swipe at his political stance in some way? G: i'm not sure i want people like that in my home, never mind dance and dine with them. E: they are your friends, darling. of course you can dine with them. G: My friends? I don't know who my friends are anymore. E: If you'd set your politics aside for one night, I think you might be surprised. surprise is on you, baroness. mwahahaha.
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 1, 2014 1:42:47 GMT
Certainly a swipe at his political stance. She is only interested in her own comfortable existence (which is far more evident in the stage version). I truly think she just doesn't understand that side of him at all.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 2, 2014 22:24:23 GMT
I am sure the 'all that worrying ' comment is a throwback to the play; I haven't read it for years, but I seem to remember that in it, Georg made several references to 'not knowing who his friends were, because he didn't know who had become a Nazi sympathiser, and who hadn't'.
Presumably when writing the screenplay, Ernest Lehmann chose to pick up on these sentiments, hence those comments. Sorry, can't lay my hands on a copy of the play now for quotes!
And to me, "what a lovely couple you make..." is a rapier of sarcasm from the baroness, simply because nuns shouldn't make couples. Meeow !!
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 2, 2014 23:14:25 GMT
you know, @indigoblue, that's what I thought too, although I pulled out my libretto and all I could find was the reference to his friends not getting with each other. I think you're right, though
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 2, 2014 23:32:42 GMT
I have a vague idea the comments come quite early on in the play (so early that I didn't really understand what they referred to when I first read them). Also, something tells me they may have been said by another character; I remember a conversation between Franz and Frau Schmidt in the servants' quarters, in which Franz makes some comments about the Nazis and the Captain. It may be there.
Having moved house since I last read the play, I now haven't a clue where my copy is!
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 3, 2014 0:19:43 GMT
Found it! E says he should have a dinner so she can meet his friends.
G: "I wouldn't know whom to invite. Today it's difficult to know who's a friend and who's an enemy."
E: "this isn't a good time to make enemies. Let's make some friends."
Definitely leads into the post-Lanendler line, but a bit of a continuity problem.
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Post by mireille on Mar 3, 2014 0:45:00 GMT
Found it! E says he should have a dinner so she can meet his friends. G: "I wouldn't know whom to invite. Today it's difficult to know who's a friend and who's an enemy." E: "this isn't a good time to make enemies. Let's make some friends." Definitely leads into the post-Lanendler line, but a bit of a continuity problem. That would have made sense!
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 3, 2014 11:01:53 GMT
Well done Anne, our supersleuth! (again)x
That all makes sense; surprising they didn't leave a bit more of that in the film. But I can see why I didn't know to what it refers when I first read it, because unless you know the historical background, it isn't clear.
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Post by mireille on Mar 3, 2014 21:06:41 GMT
He could have said it after E suggested the party. It would also explain why M ordered the children to bed. Not wanting them to get involved in the political conversation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 3, 2014 22:15:52 GMT
of course it could have been in that deleted scene that we have the still for (the one of Elsa, Max and Georg standing around with Georg holding to guitar)... just a thought!
Thanks for clearing all that up for me. It really makes sense now!!!
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 3, 2014 23:56:30 GMT
yes, it might have been, it's an odd continuity error that it stayed that way. maybe most peopel don't micro analyze the way we do!
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Post by thebeestings on May 6, 2015 15:42:41 GMT
"What a lovely couple you make".
I never picked up on how this one line does double duty. It chastises Maria and embarrasses Georg all at the same time.
Seriously, I am so enjoying reading thru all the micro analysis! It's brilliant fun and I'm sorry not to have found it all sooner!
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 6, 2015 16:49:45 GMT
"What a lovely couple you make". I never picked up on how this one line does double duty. It chastises Maria and embarrasses Georg all at the same time. Seriously, I am so enjoying reading thru all the micro analysis! It's brilliant fun and I'm sorry not to have found it all sooner! Isn't it fun to notice these things? I feel like every time I watch it, no matter how many times I have seen it, I pick up on something new. If Elsa had concerns before over Georg and Maria after watching them during Edelweiss, watching them dance leaves no questions about it in her mind, especially when she notices how Maria blushes and how affected Georg is by it. That little smile he gives her after Maria's feeble attempt to explain her red face is tender and understanding. He knows by that point her feelings for him go far beyond employer and employee and he's embarrassed for getting caught by Elsa hence the funny way he acts when Max insists that Maria join them for dinner. He doesn't want to get caught again by Elsa and he's still feeling embarrassed.
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Post by thebeestings on May 6, 2015 19:56:25 GMT
Certainly a swipe at his political stance. She is only interested in her own comfortable existence (which is far more evident in the stage version). I truly think she just doesn't understand that side of him at all. And combined with the telegram scene when she first arrived at the villa probably should have been an earlier and bigger "a ha" moment for her. I really can't see her slogging thru the Alps with her "little bags" and seven kids. When it came down to it they were incompatible on a lot of levels.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 6, 2015 20:02:39 GMT
Certainly a swipe at his political stance. She is only interested in her own comfortable existence (which is far more evident in the stage version). I truly think she just doesn't understand that side of him at all. And combined with the telegram scene when she first arrived at the villa probably should have been an earlier and bigger "a ha" moment for her. I really can't see her slogging thru the Alps with her "little bags" and seven kids. When it came down to it they were incompatible on a lot of levels. Yes, Maria is much more physically and mentally prepared for such a trek. Yes politically I don't think they match up at all. Elsa would want to stay and if they were married would perhaps try to sway him to take his commission. Maria seems to have an admiration for his loyalty to his country, "I can't ask him to be any less than he is," and she would follow him blindfolded through a snowstorm because she has that much trust in him and the decisions he makes for his family. She supports him in a way that Elsa never could or would.
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Post by augiesannie on May 6, 2015 23:30:08 GMT
Still, Elsa really does care for him. During the walk by the lake, she clearly has the feels for him; it's not just about his good looks or his money.
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Post by utility_singer on May 7, 2015 2:30:06 GMT
Still, Elsa really does care for him. During the walk by the lake, she clearly has the feels for him; it's not just about his good looks or his money. She does, but it seems to me that it isn't him, but who he is in Vienna that she cares for. "You're much less of a riddle here" indicates that there were already inconsistencies that she'd notice, though we don't know what they are.
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Post by augiesannie on May 7, 2015 2:33:59 GMT
That's a good point. I'd always heard that line without really considering it. I thought it was positive but it isn't really, is it.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 7, 2015 5:13:34 GMT
Yes, she does love him in her own little way, but it's not that deeper all knowing kind of love like Maria has for him. Maria loves the person that he is, she loves the father in him and the Austrian in him. She can read him like a book and knows how to push his buttons so to speak. She can light a fire under him that Elsa can't seem to do, she knows how to stand up to him and isn't afraid to do it. You can love someone, but still not know them completely. In her shorter time frame with him Maria has gotten to know him way more than Elsa has in a longer one. It's just different.
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Post by utility_singer on May 7, 2015 11:20:22 GMT
In a nutshell, Maria loves who he is and the man she knows he was and can be again, while Elsa loves him the way she wants him to be (and, in all fairness, was kinda led to believe he was).
In part, I think this is because Maria learned from the children about the kind of father he'd been, and how much they love him.
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Post by patrickssong on May 7, 2015 13:25:53 GMT
In a nutshell, Maria loves who he is and the man she knows he was and can be again, while Elsa loves him the way she wants him to be (and, in all fairness, was kinda led to believe he was). Pretty much agree with everything here. But still, when they are strolling along the lakeside, he is still holds back and becomes a little nervous when she opens herself up and confesses she is searching just like him.
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