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Post by thebeestings on May 7, 2015 13:38:50 GMT
In a nutshell, Maria loves who he is and the man she knows he was and can be again, while Elsa loves him the way she wants him to be (and, in all fairness, was kinda led to believe he was). And your last line is why Elsa gets sympathy from me despite her unkind behavior later on. She only saw "Vienna Captain" who probably never mentioned his children often. She must have felt she was brought to his home under false assumptions about the kind of man she thought he was. I imagine she thought she was getting a handsome, witty, charming rogue that was dynamite in the...drawing rooms across the glittering salons. I want to say to was unfair of him to present her with only one side of himself but that was all he had to give at the time he met her wasn't it? I often wonder if he would have felt the need to remarry at all if one of the previous eleven governesses had managed to stay?
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Post by skittlesmaltesers on May 7, 2015 14:09:47 GMT
Wow you guys come up with such amazing things and I agree with all of them!! I'm sorry I don't have anything much of substance to add here, my brain is pretty dead right now (actually all the time). I'd just like to say that as a kid I never understood the lakeside scene with Elsa and Georg, because I didn't understand what was going on! But now I think it's quite interesting how cryptic some of their conversation can be. Like
"Activity suggests a life filled with purpose." "Or perhaps just searching for a reason to stay." and of course as you guys have brought up before "You're much less of a riddle when I see you here, Georg."
I know we've talked about searching for a reason to stay in some other thread but I couldn't help but bring it up again!
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 7, 2015 16:03:33 GMT
In a nutshell, Maria loves who he is and the man she knows he was and can be again, while Elsa loves him the way she wants him to be (and, in all fairness, was kinda led to believe he was). Pretty much agree with everything here. But still, when they are strolling along the lakeside, he is still holds back and becomes a little nervous when she opens herself up and confesses she is searching just like him. Yes, I have noticed this too. He kind of gives that nervous little chuckle like he isn't quite ready to open up and be vulnerable to her. She keeps prodding him, trying to get him to talk more, but he isn't exactly comfortable with it. I'm not sure if he loves her all the way or if he's just lonely and filling his time with her and is confusing it for love.
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Post by augiesannie on May 7, 2015 22:03:14 GMT
"Searching for a reason to stay" makes no sense at first. Why would he leave home to search for a reason to stay? But I guess he means that he doesn't have a reason to stay at home, and that he is looking everywhere he goes in hopes of finding one. This is probably what I said in that old thread. A better moderator than I would keep these threads all tidy.
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Post by indigoblue on May 7, 2015 23:48:48 GMT
I think she really doesn't understand him well; 'a riddle' is something you don't understand (because if you do understand it, it isn't a riddle any more), and he is only 'less of a riddle' at home compared to how she finds him in Vienna.
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Post by utility_singer on May 8, 2015 2:26:10 GMT
I don't think he loves Elsa, and I also don't think he thinks he loves her, either. I think he is filling his time with someone he finds charming, pleasant, witty, a great hostess, and lovely to look at. He isn't looking for 'more'; he either doesn't think lightning will strike a second time, or feels he doesn't deserve/need another love match. It knocks him for a loop when it creeps up on him in the form of Maria.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 8, 2015 5:56:34 GMT
I don't think he loves Elsa, and I also don't think he thinks he loves her, either. I think he is filling his time with someone he finds charming, pleasant, witty, a great hostess, and lovely to look at. He isn't looking for 'more'; he either doesn't think lightning will strike a second time, or feels he doesn't deserve/need another love match. It knocks him for a loop when it creeps up on him in the form of Maria. That's what I was leaning towards. I think she cares more about him in that way than he does with her. I think he like her, but not necessarily loves her. He just likes to occupy his time with her and is looking for someone who he can share some of his time with.
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Post by augiesannie on May 12, 2015 13:12:47 GMT
I wrote a story about the waltz, and you can read it here
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 12, 2015 13:44:53 GMT
I read it, it was very good!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 23, 2020 2:10:17 GMT
I like comparing Georg dancing with Maria with Georg dancing with Elsa. During the Laendler, he seems to be genuinely happy, though this leads to him being so in his own world that he loses control of his actions and almost kisses her. Here, he seems to have his mask back on. He looks sophisticated and proper and in complete control of himself. Elsa is feeling victorious, though I don't think she feels that Maria was her only obstacle. They are smiling and dancing and look wonderful together, which in their high society world, means everything is ok. It doesn't matter if you are actually happy, it only matters that you look happy. I'm sure Elsa likes showing the guests how lovely of a couple they are, which she would have been hoping they would be doing the entire night. What do the guests ("Georg's friends that it was high time she met") think of Elsa? That she and Georg are a great match?
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Post by pandaexpress on Jan 23, 2020 2:41:36 GMT
That's an interesting question: what do the guests think of them as a couple? I have absolutely no idea, but I would like to point out that the only conversation we really hear between the Captain and his friends are about either the children and how wonderful their performance was, and about the Nazis. No one seems to mention or barely acknowledge Elsa.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 12, 2020 0:04:08 GMT
I always thought it was odd how the only person who paid attention to Elsa at the party was Max.
She must have been lonely there without any of her friends, only Georg's (who don't all look like Elsa's type.)
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 13, 2020 20:06:41 GMT
Good observation. Why is no one paying attention to Elsa? The whole point of the party is to introduce her to his friends, so why doesn't anyone go over and talk to her? Do they think she's snobby because she's from Vienna? Do they think she isn't the right woman to fill Agathe's shoes? Are they just happy to be at a party at the villa after so many years and are too busy gossiping about that to care about Elsa?
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Post by Supercali on Feb 14, 2020 3:15:05 GMT
Also I've noticed one thing while I was watching the movie again recently. I am not sure if it was odd or not, that Elsa came to Salzburg without a maid or a personal secretary or even a female friend. Apparently her hair and wardrobe needed lots of maintenance, and she had planned to stay in Salzburg for more than a weekend. Wouldn't it be too inconvenient for her to manage everything by herself or by a maid from the villa? Especially as a informal host of the party. If she didn't want Georg to think she's high-maintenance and decided not to bring a personal secretary, she could at least bring a girl friend which could also help her at the party.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 15, 2020 0:44:52 GMT
Ah, maybe that's what Max's purpose is - as a personal attendant/hairdresser to Elsa...he does seem to have this close, gossippy relationship with her, and I know it has been widely discussed that he could be gay, so maybe it all fits? Perhaps the description of 'Chaperone' is merely a euphemism? And if he is gay, he wouldn't be seen as threat to Georg.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 19, 2020 20:32:26 GMT
Max does seem very close to Elsa in a friend to gossip with sort of way. He feels comfortable asking her about her relationship with Georg after the walk by the lake scene, they sit together during edelweiss, she seeks him out to celebrate with after she scares off Maria at the party. Though, he has to actually be closer to Georg than Elsa, or he wouldn't have stuck around to be best man in the wedding.
Now that you point it out, it does seem odd that Elsa doesn't have an assistant or friend with her at all during her stay, and that no close friends traveled from Vienna to support her during her party to meet her boyfriend's friends. Does she have genuine friends? Or are all of the people around her because she is rich and fun to party with?
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 22, 2020 23:46:43 GMT
I'm sure she has friends, as she has charm.
However, Salzburg is 300km from Vienna (approx 250 miles), so it is quite a journey, especially in pre-war days and in those old-fashioned cars, so getting friends to make the journey might have been difficult, not least because Vienna was and is such a pinnacle of culture. Salzburg by comparison is very 'countrified', and would have been seen as very unsophisticated by her Viennese friends, so they may have felt the journey just 'too far to make'.
' Fair weather friends? - Maybe.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 21, 2020 14:23:58 GMT
I agree. That does seem like a long trip for most people to make in those days. Though, if the party were in a more desirable location, I suspect some would be in the "of course, we'll be there to support you, darling" camp. Maybe she didn't invite anyone from Vienna since this was a party to meet Georg's friends, not to party with hers? Still, it seems odd that not even one person (a super close girlfriend, for example) didn't make the effort to be there for her. She could have used a friend to confide in.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 9, 2020 23:39:52 GMT
I was thinking about what the guests think of Elsa and Georg as a couple.
I suppose it may depend on what Agathe was like (and what their marriage was like); if Agathe was loved and 'approved of'in Salzburg circles because she was a good wife and mother, then maybe Elsa was thought to be a bit racy and glamorous (especially for a new marriage in middle age and when the kids needed a mother-figure). So perhaps one reason she doesn't seem to mix much at the party may be because the Salburgers don't instinctively approve of her. This would be picked up very quickly by Elsa, so maybe this is another 'nail in the coffin' which creeps into her mind, that she wouldn't fit in and find friends easily.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 13, 2020 13:49:00 GMT
I was thinking about what the guests think of Elsa and Georg as a couple. I suppose it may depend on what Agathe was like (and what their marriage was like); if Agathe was loved and 'approved of'in Salzburg circles because she was a good wife and mother, then maybe Elsa was thought to be a bit racy and glamorous (especially for a new marriage in middle age and when the kids needed a mother-figure). So perhaps one reason she doesn't seem to mix much at the party may be because the Salburgers don't instinctively approve of her. This would be picked up very quickly by Elsa, so maybe this is another 'nail in the coffin' which creeps into her mind, that she wouldn't fit in and find friends easily. How many nails in the coffin do we have at this point? Georg is a different person (more at home) in Salzburg than with her in Vienna, she's concerned that he'll never propose because of his heartache over Agathe, she doesn't want 7 kids around, her man is being too friendly with the governess, and the guests at the party do not approve of her. At some point she must think that this relationship is not worth it. She seems to still be fighting for him until the end, but she also does not seem shocked when he starts to the breakup conversation. Why is she trying so hard to make it work with Georg? I know, I know, he's lovely to look at. But what else about him is attractive to her? She doesn't need his money. Just that when he's in Vienna, he's fun to party with and they look like the perfect power couple together? She has it figured out quickly that the real Georg is not like that. What would it have had to take for her to initiate the break up with him?
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 13, 2020 17:12:35 GMT
Remember Frau Schmidt's reaction when Maria at the thunderstorm night scene asks her about the baroness, when she says...wonderful, the kids will have a new mother, and Frau Schmidt frowns negatively, like she disapproves of Elsa. Also, in the original play, after Elsa throws away Maria that runs away to the abbey, this song is sung www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuYv-_8VXGQ
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 14, 2020 22:36:01 GMT
I was thinking about what the guests think of Elsa and Georg as a couple. I suppose it may depend on what Agathe was like (and what their marriage was like); if Agathe was loved and 'approved of'in Salzburg circles because she was a good wife and mother, then maybe Elsa was thought to be a bit racy and glamorous (especially for a new marriage in middle age and when the kids needed a mother-figure). So perhaps one reason she doesn't seem to mix much at the party may be because the Salburgers don't instinctively approve of her. This would be picked up very quickly by Elsa, so maybe this is another 'nail in the coffin' which creeps into her mind, that she wouldn't fit in and find friends easily. How many nails in the coffin do we have at this point? Georg is a different person (more at home) in Salzburg than with her in Vienna, she's concerned that he'll never propose because of his heartache over Agathe, she doesn't want 7 kids around, her man is being too friendly with the governess, and the guests at the party do not approve of her. At some point she must think that this relationship is not worth it. She seems to still be fighting for him until the end, but she also does not seem shocked when he starts to the breakup conversation. Why is she trying so hard to make it work with Georg? I know, I know, he's lovely to look at. But what else about him is attractive to her? She doesn't need his money. Just that when he's in Vienna, he's fun to party with and they look like the perfect power couple together? She has it figured out quickly that the real Georg is not like that. What would it have had to take for her to initiate the break up with him? Hmm, that's a good one...the first thing which jumps into my mind is the draw of a good house and its land. I am assuming here that the Villa von Trapp has a considerable land around it, as was the norm in the old days, so that the income from the land would support the upkeep of the house and the family that lived within it. Such a set up had/has such status that many people who have money alone still crave the status of land and associated property. Was this what drew Elsa so close to Georg?Maybe then if she realised Salzburgers weren't her sort of people, it dawned on her that there just wasn't enough to keep them together, land or no land? As for what else would have initiated the break-up, that will have to be the subject of my musing for the next few days - how delicious! Will be back...
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 15, 2020 8:03:15 GMT
What would it have had to take for her to initiate the break up with him? Why initiate the break-up since she went to Salzburg to get approval from the kids to be their 2nd mother? From the moment she leaves her luxurious house with all her comforts and ease in order to go to a small town 5-6 hours away (today it is 3hours drive-way, then in the late 30s I guess the roads would be worse and the cars also less quick) to get acquainted with the seven children of a retired naval widower, and she really wants to marry him, all these mean that she is in love with him, she likes him extremely and wants him desperately. She could have many other choices on men, she is extremely beautiful, a genuine aristocrat and social, and well-bred, she has money and she is also a widower, that meaning she has her own experiences and knows how to stand in different occasions. Georg is good-looking, well-bred also, widower like her, rich with a villa, and she feels that they suit each other. They have a marvellous time together. I believe that he would have in his circle other women also who were interested in him, so why should the baroness leave him prey to any young girl appearing in his way? she does everything she can to win, she is a player. And this is a love game.
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 15, 2020 8:12:52 GMT
I was thinking about what the guests think of Elsa and Georg as a couple. Nice question... I think that they respect her because she is a rich Viennese baroness and the party is on her honour for the Salzburgers to get to know her better. She fits perfectly with Georg, the villa is splendid, the food superb, all the drinking free of charge, so why not like her? Notice also that she wears a white impressive gown at the party, I think this is a clear hint that she prepares herself to get married to the Captain. So I believe that the guests are impressed by her and maybe admire her.
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 15, 2020 8:16:56 GMT
Also I've noticed one thing while I was watching the movie again recently. I am not sure if it was odd or not, that Elsa came to Salzburg without a maid or a personal secretary or even a female friend. Apparently her hair and wardrobe needed lots of maintenance, and she had planned to stay in Salzburg for more than a weekend. Wouldn't it be too inconvenient for her to manage everything by herself or by a maid from the villa? Especially as a informal host of the party. If she didn't want Georg to think she's high-maintenance and decided not to bring a personal secretary, she could at least bring a girl friend which could also help her at the party. Maybe she had help from the maids that were at Georg's house. We see a maid serving a strudel to Max at some point. And we know that there was also a chef meaning that there were other servants except Frau Schmidt and Franz. Also imagine if she had a girlfriend, the length of the movie would reach 4 hours...I think there was no time for more persons playing main parts, the plot is already huge.
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 15, 2020 8:30:56 GMT
I like comparing Georg dancing with Maria with Georg dancing with Elsa. Laendler is a folklor peasant dance whereas waltz is an aristocratic dance at the viennese salons. Laendler is multi-dimensional, bold and carefree, has different styles, moves, showing off, crossing of hands whereas waltz is the waltz we all know, very aristocratic. I feel that in laendler he is more real and close to his inner self whereas in the waltz he is more like a stage actor showing off for the party.
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 18, 2020 23:54:33 GMT
Elsa sorta kinda does break up with him, I mean of course he starts it: "It's no use," but she stops him and takes control of the situation, to salvage her pride I guess. "I've been thinking."
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Post by reverendcaptain on Dec 30, 2020 6:20:27 GMT
Do any of you know how to dance like the people at this party? The Edelweiss waltz that Georg and Elsa dance is a little bit slower, but the my favorite things waltz at the beginning of the party has people spinning so fast, I think I'd fall over after about two turns.
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laurynvi
Full Member
I ask you to stay.
Posts: 212
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Post by laurynvi on Dec 30, 2020 13:59:05 GMT
Do any of you know how to dance like the people at this party? The Edelweiss waltz that Georg and Elsa dance is a little bit slower, but the my favorite things waltz at the beginning of the party has people spinning so fast, I think I'd fall over after about two turns. Haha, I do! That is what they call a Viennese waltz (in fact, so is the Edelweiss waltz but I agree it's a touch slower) - it looks like a frenzy but there are really only two basic moves: the "natural turn" alternating with the "reserve turn", which is in the opposite direction so you never get dizzy! It's also more "horizontal" - not as much rise and fall as with the slow waltz, giving the impression people move faster. [Ballroom dancing was my second love before we had kids, lol.] Speaking of ballroom dancing, a fun fact - that end move in the Laendler (not a "real" dance I know) where they're looking at each other through the "window" shape they make with their arms is similar to a move known as "the sweetheart" in other dance styles (ironic, isn't it?).
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 1, 2021 23:23:35 GMT
Wonderful! Can you tell us anymore about the dances we see in the film?
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