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Post by augiesannie on Jul 8, 2013 0:21:56 GMT
I'll warn you - I have, like, a few dozen little moments like this I love to obsess about, so watch out. Anyhow, here's the scene: the Laendler has happened, but Georg is cool as a cucumber (I'll write about that another time). Elsa goes upstairs to scare the dickens out of Maria, and emerges triumphant. After a brief exchange with Max, she seeks out Georg and he sweeps her into a waltz. What a moment. We know that, in the long run, Elsa will not prevail. Is she feeling confident or does she know, deep down, that she's on thin ice? Is Georg trying to pretend everything is alright? Is he genuinely feeling warm and affectionate toward Elsa? Is he unsettled? As with the gazebo, I don't think there has to be only one answer to these questions - I love hearing everyone's ideas! I tried to add some pictures here, not sure if they will show up. Attachments:
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 8, 2013 22:53:19 GMT
I get the feeling that Elsa is confident that she has seen off her rival, and that the runway to the altar is now clear. However, in keeping with my thoughts on FB about the ballroom scene, I think Georg is seriously rattled by his own emotions, and concerned he has 'let the cat out of the bag' at the Laendler, not having realised that Elsa was looking on. For me, this explains his coldness after the dance, as he tries hard to rein in his feelings ( and, I hope, be civil to Elsa, who is standing there). But as we know, he can't, and although he appears to be calm and collected in these dance scenes, I think there is a maelstrom of emotions going on underneath the surface as he wrestles with what he should do. There is something very intriguing about this waltz, where she is thinking one thing, and he another!
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Post by lemacd on Jul 9, 2013 1:40:40 GMT
i think that elsa is not so much confident as she is relieved... maybe she feels a bit victorious, but in a 'phew that was close' kind of way. when she is having a drink with max and being coy and cryptic ("you know something") she looks over at georg who is talking to some young guests... she loves him so much. dang, i hope elsa lived happily every after....
as for georg, hmmm... i think he is rattled after the dance. i think he knows that elsa caught him dancing but is not going to bring it up and is happy to leave it under the surface. i agree that he has to regain his self control. but as for that dance... that moment when elsa crosses the floor to get to him, he just moves to her and they dance beautifully. i think at this point, georg wants to be in love with elsa. i'm not saying his emotions haven't been stirred for maria at all. i just think he is in the 'talking myself out of it' stage of love.
this is why i think elsa sunk her own ship making maria run away. i mean, it probably would have ended the same way if maria hadn't run away, but i think it definitely backfired on the fair baroness.
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louisavontrapp
Junior Member
I knew the first time you blew that silly whistle.
Posts: 94
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Post by louisavontrapp on Aug 3, 2013 2:22:26 GMT
Maybe Elsa's feeling is 60/40. 60% happy because Maria is away and 40% sad because Captain became 'quiet' and acts weird. Just look in the scene of the "pink lemonade". You could feel that Georg is trying to change the topic when "Maria" word is said. You could also see it in Elsa's face. Soon, Georg ended up the discussion by announcing that they are engaged. Maybe He thought that it will make him feel better but no, because of the Children's look. And also with Elsa, that she felt guilty in what she did.
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Post by utility_singer on Oct 17, 2013 15:59:42 GMT
She figured she'd won the battle, but I don't think she was convinced she'd yet won the war.
I think Elsa knew from arrival at the villa she wasn't meant to be with Georg. Her exchange with Max on the terrace: "Do I hear wedding bells?" "Pealing madly,but not necessarily for me".
That actually puts a something else into focus as well---the telegram he received at dinner the night Maria arrived. He announces he's going to Vienna, then when questioned by the children says Elsa and Max will be returning with him. I think Elsa sent the telegram telling him to basically to bring her to Salzburg to prod him into furthering the relationship. He probably was distracted with thoughts of the new governess while he was there, and by the time Elsa met Maria she had realized what was to be the inevitable outcome. That's also why she wanted the party; if they publicly appeared as a 'couple', she'd have that on her side.
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Post by augiesannie on Oct 17, 2013 16:56:36 GMT
great points @utility_singer. You are so smart about this stuff. I love that you brought up the telegram. Am going to sit on my thoughts about the telegram for now in case you decide to make a separate thread about it (hint, hint). I do agree that Elsa is on edge from the moment of her arrival. Her side of their conversation by the lake is gently probing, while his is courteously evasive. She does have some reason for optimism: clearly he cares that the children make a good impression on her, and he does say some nice things to her there by the lake (not to mention doing something in back of her that we can't quite see, and brandishing that riding crop). You know, I agree with what lemacd said yesterday about not making him a villain, but he did kind of send her mixed signals. I guess he wanted to believe he could make it work with Elsa. But within a very short period of time, he has reconnected with the children, he's had his moment with Maria and . . . the rest is history.
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Post by lemacd on Oct 17, 2013 18:11:14 GMT
yes, that telegram is a bit of a bother at times. at least it was for a brief moment for LIY. only briefly. poll question!!!
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Post by lisab1991 on Nov 1, 2013 20:38:27 GMT
I always thought Georg's coolness towards Elsa after the Ländler (and of course, seeing them dancing and gazing at eachother as they did) was some sort of a turning point for her - I think she knows her relationship with Georg is practically in danger, and wants to ensure her plans go as she planned them in the first place. So she goes upstairs and confronts the only thing that might stand between her and Georg. She's been so confident about herself and her position in Georg's life, despite the fact that the good man already has 7 kids (besides, why should you worry when there's this lovely little thing called boarding school?). She knows Maria is a threat, and wants to be rid of her.. And she knows exactly how to make her leave.. Surely she can't send her to boarding school along with the seven kids, but she can make her leave to the one and only place where Elsa knows, once she's in there, she won't interfere ever again.
So she feels triumphant when she comes down again, once again confident, because the one and only obstacle standing between her and Georg has been successfully taken care of. And to make sure Georg forgets about that rather "warm" dance with said obstacle, she sweeps him into a nice Viennese waltz.. Mission accomplished.
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 1, 2013 21:17:17 GMT
Good points, lisab. I still don't think she is completely confident. She is very nervous (it seems to me) when the children are singing badly because Maria is not there, especially when Georg joins them on the terrace. Elsa is particularly uncomfortable when Georg announces to the children that they will no longer have a governess but a new mother, and waiting for the response. Perhaps she's realized in the time between her running Maria off and Georg telling the children that the battle isn't over until the gets that ring on her finger.
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Post by lisab1991 on Nov 1, 2013 21:34:03 GMT
Agreed. And perhaps she realized she never actually had a chance to win his heart after seeing his reaction/facial expression the following morning, when he noticed she had left.. I like to think she somewhat felt confident again when she rejoined the party, but that that partially thriumphant feeling got squashed not long afterwards..
Still, some days later (we never learned how many), they actually agreed on marrying. What would made her still feel unsure? The children? Surely Georg would never have agreed to marry the woman if he already really knew who his heart belonged to..? Or is this just me, wishful thinking? Don't get me wrong, I truly ship Georg and Maria, and I know he made that comment about not being honest with her etc., but if a man as Georg would ask me to become his wife, I wouldn't actually doubt him.. He doesn't seem a man to me to settle for less than the max. So that doesn't really make sense to me..
Or is it me who doesn't make any sense anymore? Lol
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Post by lemacd on Nov 1, 2013 21:44:19 GMT
i often wonder about G's reaction to the note M left. I mean, we see his indifference when he tells the children what it said (i say indifference... it was a cover up because i'm sure he was actually disappointed), but at that moment... what does he think? and i'm sure he tries to shrug it off to elsa (who knows what the note is about for real) but what are the kinds of tell tale signs he would unconsciously give to make elsa continue to be jealous?
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 1, 2013 21:50:29 GMT
LOL No, I get that. I think the problem for Georg was that Maria returned to the abbey. A man of principle would more than likely not presume to get in the way of her religious calling (assuming here that what her note said was remotely close to what he told the children it contained). Her faith was strong, and he knew it. I think *he* knew how he felt about Maria, but he didn't know whether or not she felt the same. In view of that plus her plan to take her final vows, he thought it a lost cause and fell back to what his plan had been all along---marry Elsa, for companionship and a mother for the children. He had never planned on thawing out his heart, so it hadn't mattered before that he was settling. She was appropriate and socially acceptable, they were fond of one another. Add to that that back then, especially in the upper classes, marriage as a love match was a bonus, not an intention.
All that, to say that Elsa knew Georg loved Maria but was willing to marry him anyway; Georg knew he loved Maria but thought he'd lost her to the convent forever, and when Elsa told him "Somewhere out there, is a young lady who, I think, will never be a nun" was when he realized that maybe Maria loved him too. The look of surprise wasn't that Elsa had seen through him, but that Elsa thought he actually had a chance with Maria.
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Post by lisab1991 on Nov 1, 2013 22:14:32 GMT
LOL No, I get that. I think the problem for Georg was that Maria returned to the abbey. A man of principle would more than likely not presume to get in the way of her religious calling (assuming here that what her note said was remotely close to what he told the children it contained). Her faith was strong, and he knew it. I think *he* knew how he felt about Maria, but he didn't know whether or not she felt the same. In view of that plus her plan to take her final vows, he thought it a lost cause and fell back to what his plan had been all along---marry Elsa, for companionship and a mother for the children. He had never planned on thawing out his heart, so it hadn't mattered before that he was settling. She was appropriate and socially acceptable, they were fond of one another. Add to that that back then, especially in the upper classes, marriage as a love match was a bonus, not an intention. All that, to say that Elsa knew Georg loved Maria but was willing to marry him anyway; Georg knew he loved Maria but thought he'd lost her to the convent forever, and when Elsa told him "Somewhere out there, is a young lady who, I think, will never be a nun" was when he realized that maybe Maria loved him too. The look of surprise wasn't that Elsa had seen through him, but that Elsa thought he actually had a chance with Maria. Oh wow. The way you explain that.. I never really thought of it that way.. And I thought I had figured it all out, lol! At some point, I can't resist making a comparison between Georg/Elsa and Maxim/Rebecca from Daphne du Maurier's Rebecca.. And by that I mean the loveless marriage, though they made it seem towards the outside world as if they were really happy together. It was more of some kind of business deal.. Though I don't think Georg and Elsa behave on a very awkward way around eachother. At least they *like* eachother, which could be considered a bonus among the upper class.. And it's certainly not for the money that they would marry.. So I agree with you, the marrying for companionship, and for the kids to have a mother again.. At least that's what's *his* attention was. I can't help wondering if Georg would have allowed his children to be sent away to boarding school.. Not after reconnecting with them like he did, thanks to Maria..
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 1, 2013 22:47:08 GMT
I like to think he would not have done that.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 2, 2013 11:58:20 GMT
Agree with most of this, and love the way lisab wrote about Elsa's triumph. Though my take has always been a little different: I think G was becoming increasingly attracted to M, both physically and in a deeper emotional way. As I've said before, but I know you don't mind if I repeat myself, I don't think he lets himself love her until she comes back, assuming she was intent on her vocation, or simply out of stubbornness. The Laendler might be a moment where he sees that she is attracted to him, and that's part of what rattles him. "talking himself out of it" as lemacd put it last summer. When she flees, he goes back to Plan A, and I love how utility put it: to what his plan had been all along---marry Elsa, for companionship and a mother for the children. He had never planned on thawing out his heart, so it hadn't mattered before that he was settling. She was appropriate and socially acceptable, they were fond of one another. Add to that that back then, especially in the upper classes, marriage as a love match was a bonus, not an intention. . I also don't really blame him for proposing to her. He is fond of Elsa - I don't think he expected that life would offer him a second chance at the kind of marriage he had the first time. (Oh, I think I am repeating one of my stories, so maybe you can just read that again and save me the trouble of telling you what I think). I love the way you all wrote about Elsa's burst of confidence, which EP movingly portrays as slowly eroding by the time they tell the children. (And I think she could have lost confidence by then, as you are suggesting, because she sees little flickers of the old G coming back to life - his reconnecting to his children, the way he and M are locked in that blazing gaze - these are things about G she wasn't betting on back in Vienna. And how brusque he is about Maria - maybe Elsa isn't worried that Maria will return, but she sure could worry that he is not the man she thought she was hoping to marry. And maybe when she hears him say, "you're going to have a new mother," she hears how awfully unlikely the whole thing is, I think when I wrote it, I had him realizing at that moment that he couldn't marry her. BTW This is one thing I love about utility's story; their intimate history is a perfect frame around Elsa's wavering confidence, although of course I don't know where the story is going next). Back a while ago in this thread, indigo said that what is great about this waltz is that they are thinking two different things -- he is still rattled by Maria (he doesn't know she's leaving) and Elsa is more or less triumphant. I don't think I agree that, by the time E&G are on the terrace, he is surprised that he has a chance with Maria, because his behavior with her a few minutes later shows that he suspects why she came back. I do think it's kind of a loony look that has never been well explained, but that could be its own thread. Sorry if I am repeating what others said but I just . . . like to talk about it! PS lisab1991 you made me smile, I once thought of a Rebecca/TSOM mashup, but it would have involved making Agathe the villain. Which I couldn't quite bring myself to do.
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 2, 2013 12:16:37 GMT
That's why I said his surprise is at what Elsa says-----men are, as a species, not very good at picking up signals. So while he suspects (and hopes) that is why Maria returned, and he knows he can't marry Elsa and must break the engagement, he is surprised that Elsa has noticed Maria's feelings/behavior and now, essentially, gives him "permission" to go do what they both know he needs to do.
Not sure that makes sense when I write it, but it does in my head.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 2, 2013 12:25:51 GMT
Oh, yes, that's beautiful. I thought you meant that it's only when Elsa says it, that the thought even crosses his mind. It's perfect, the way you put it, and really makes sense of that loony look. Really, meeting you guys has been like finding out that people who only existed in my head are actually real. Now THAT probably doesn't make sense.
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 2, 2013 17:21:55 GMT
No, it makes perfect sense. I was wandering in the wilderness until I found all of you!
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Post by lisab1991 on Nov 2, 2013 19:42:12 GMT
PS lisab1991 you made me smile, I once thought of a Rebecca/TSOM mashup, but it would have involved making Agathe the villain. Which I couldn't quite bring myself to do. Well you know what they say, augiesannie, great minds think alike It's not my intention to make Agathe a villain though.. Not even Elsa per say.. I just thought the resemblance between both marriages (Maxim and Rebecca, Georg and Elsa) could be alike, in an AU sort of way... Plus, Frau Schmidt seems such a dear to me.. Not in the least could she be a possible Mrs. Danvers.. But perhaps that's the right role for dissaproving Franz? Hmmm... The scene at the balcony didn't really seem like an eye opener for Georg to me.. I always thought of him giving that look, as if saying: "What? Elsa, I have no idea what you're talking about..!", but in truth, of course, he does. It always seemed to me as if he was trying to hide the truth from others, especially from her.. But then Elsa gives him that look, like "Darling, don't try to fool me.. you're such an open book when it comes to Maria!" and then his face gives him away, as if he's finally brave enough to admit it to others that, yes, he does love her.. and that the future he envisions for her does not include any wimples or abbeys or RM's..
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 2, 2013 19:51:15 GMT
what makes ME really happy is that I always LOVED this waltz scene and look what a great conversation ensued!
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 3, 2013 22:48:03 GMT
I love the idea that Georg didn't realise it, but everyone at the villa knew what was on his mind - even the kids!
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 3, 2013 23:09:19 GMT
I love the idea that Georg didn't realise it, but everyone at the villa knew what was on his mind - even the kids! Men can be so dense.
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Post by augiesannie on Nov 3, 2013 23:58:25 GMT
BTW nice new avatar, @indigoblue.
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Post by indigoblue on Nov 5, 2013 0:19:58 GMT
Hey, yes! It's taken me till now to find something I liked - but I wouldn't want people to think I was dotty about anyone...
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Post by utility_singer on Nov 5, 2013 12:33:45 GMT
If you're dotty then so am I.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 9:47:45 GMT
I just read through this entire thread! It was totally awesome (so disappointed I wasn't here for this topic when you guys were talking about it).
I feel like I need to add my thoughts if that's ok!
I know there are so many topics that come back to the balcony scene and there are so many theories behind it but I've been thinking about the look Georg gives Elsa when she says "somewhere out there is a young lady who will never be a nun" was more like a "whoa! You figured it out too? I didn't realise it was so obvious."
Also, getting back to the waltz, seeing Elsa had made the comment that he (Georg) will get over it, men often do, I think at the moment that she went to dance the waltz, she truly believed that as soon as Maria was out of the way, the he would just forget about her, but obviously, she was wrong!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2014 9:49:43 GMT
Oh I also loved the off topic conversation about how pleased you all were to have found each other here. I'm pleased to have met you all too. Being here on this forum has totally unleashed my TSOM obsession to a degree that is almost indescribable! It is nice to meet other people on the same page as me!
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 14, 2014 11:03:53 GMT
...and it is so nice to know one isn't completely barmy (which is what I thought before I found you) -I am normally reasonably well-adjusted, so this little quirk of mine was puzzling, and delicious at the same time!
So thank YOU all, from Totally Devoted xx
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2014 6:42:08 GMT
OK, so it is not 'quite' the waltz scene but I thought this was the best thread to add this to, rather than start another new thread.
Just after the Laendler when Elsa and Georg walk back into the ballroom just before So Long, Farewell, Elsa says "All that needless worrying Georg, you thought you'd never find a friend at the party." Now this line has been bugging me for ages.
While I'm sure there are completely obvious answers to this (and I'll accept obvious answers, although I'm hoping for less obvious, more in-depth micro-analysis answers), I'm wondering what she really means by this line.
Is it just something to say to break the ice after seeing M and G dance the Laendler, or is there a backstory of Georg worrying about the party (and my brain goes into overtime thinking of all the wonderful fan tics you guys have written about the time between the puppet show and the ball) but I'm thinking movie details only.
Thoughts?
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Post by mireille on Feb 28, 2014 8:35:27 GMT
To me she always said it to put M down. It always felt like a stab in the back. Somthing like "how can you be friends with her? You're her employer."
Was this party not thrown because she wanted to meet his friends? So he already has 'friends'. Maybe it was to get him to talk about it, but then there comes Maria again and interupt them.
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