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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 26, 2020 13:54:08 GMT
I do so love it when threads go downhill fast Well, if we are going to go downhill, we might as well go all the way. Do you think Maria has ever been touched by a man before the gazebo? Do you think she has ever seen a man without a shirt on? What do you think she knows about the wedding night? She seems super naive. She probably didn't learn too much at the convent except that it's a sin before marriage. She does seem to catch on quickly, and is kissing him as much as he is kissing her at the end of Something Good. Maybe being with Georg like this is another adventure she is longing for?
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Post by ANeedlePullingThread on Jan 26, 2020 16:22:15 GMT
I do so love it when threads go downhill fast Well, if we are going to go downhill, we might as well go all the way. Do you think Maria has ever been touched by a man before the gazebo? Do you think she has ever seen a man without a shirt on? What do you think she knows about the wedding night? She seems super naive. She probably didn't learn too much at the convent except that it's a sin before marriage. She does seem to catch on quickly, and is kissing him as much as he is kissing her at the end of Something Good. Maybe being with Georg like this is another adventure she is longing for? I am here 10000% for this content. She’s probably seen a shirtless man, maybe even men in the buff, but given how naive and wide eyed she is, I gather it wasn’t for the purposes of romance. I think this was her first passionate skin to skin event so to speak. The wedding night? I can only imagine. She most likely has an idea of how it looks and works, but what a specimen she has acquired in Georg! For a first time she couldn’t have had a better one. I believe she did impress him. She was firm and kind...
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 26, 2020 23:38:45 GMT
Linking these two themes above, I think both of them were nervous as hell, because neither had a clue about what the other really thought.
I think Georg is putting a brave face on it by smiling to cover up his anxiety - for all he knows, she is still a fully paid-up nun and doesn't want his advances. And he wouldn't want to upset her if this was the case - very embarrassing...
When G announces his engagement to Elsa is off, it doesn't necessarily mean he wants to marry Maria; she probably thinks he has just come to tell her about that, to be polite! Hence her 'non-commital' stance, which I think is because she is thinking madly what it all means. It's just she just doesn't know...
And as for the question about Maria, I'm sure she has seen a man shirtless before, but not that close up; my feeling is that she may have had 'daliances', but nothing serious - it's as though when they say "You have to kiss a lot of frogs before you meet your handsome prince" - well, Maria got lucky and found her Handsome Prince first time - woohoo!
And as for the honeymoon - I like to think it was Georg who was firm and kind, given his...er...extensive experience, particularly compared to Maria. A sort of teacher, perhaps: lord knows she would need some guidance!
Having said that, if it was me and the Captain, I rather think my instincts would take over...big time!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 28, 2020 15:27:45 GMT
When G announces his engagement to Elsa is off, it doesn't necessarily mean he wants to marry Maria; she probably thinks he has just come to tell her about that, to be polite! Hence her 'non-commital' stance, which I think is because she is thinking madly what it all means. It's just she just doesn't know... I have never really thought about it quite like this before. I'm sure Maria has gone over every look in her head a thousand times in seclusion wondering what it all meant, and was probably confident that it meant Georg liked her after the pep talk from RM, but then the engagement announcement must have blown her confidence to pieces. When Georg is talking about there not being any baroness, I always see her and not fully paying attention because she is lost in her own thoughts. If she were paying attention, she would have understood right away that no baroness meant Georg wanted to be with her. But, now that I think about it, you are right. She has probably lost all hope of Georg wanting to be with her, and is assuming that he wants her to stay as governess because he won't have a mother for his kids. He is just politely telling her the household situation. The hope doesn't return until he can't marry Elsa when he's in love with someone else. Even then she is guarded. Good thing Georg's kisses are so confidence boosting.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 28, 2020 16:21:08 GMT
Well, if we are going to go downhill, we might as well go all the way. Do you think Maria has ever been touched by a man before the gazebo? Do you think she has ever seen a man without a shirt on? What do you think she knows about the wedding night? She seems super naive. She probably didn't learn too much at the convent except that it's a sin before marriage. She does seem to catch on quickly, and is kissing him as much as he is kissing her at the end of Something Good. Maybe being with Georg like this is another adventure she is longing for? I am here 10000% for this content. She’s probably seen a shirtless man, maybe even men in the buff, but given how naive and wide eyed she is, I gather it wasn’t for the purposes of romance. I think this was her first passionate skin to skin event so to speak. The wedding night? I can only imagine. She most likely has an idea of how it looks and works, but what a specimen she has acquired in Georg! For a first time she couldn’t have had a better one. I believe she did impress him. She was firm and kind... Anyone have a favorite "first time" fanfic they want to give a shout out to? I can't handle anything too overly graphic or vulgar, but I do really like thinking about how these two characters would be together. I like "Come Away With Me" by IDontKnowYourSignal. Its on ff.net. Anyone else read that one? I know. This question should probably be in a story thread or this whole downhill topic should have probably been its own thread. It used to bother me how off topic some of these discussions got because I could never find what I was looking for. Now, I'm contributing to the chaos.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 26, 2020 17:10:46 GMT
What are these two thinking when they first see each other at the gazebo? Georg seems relieved to have the opportunity to talk alone with her, though he doesn't seem to have put much thought into what he was going to say. Is Maria disappointed to see him, preferring to be with her own thoughts? Is she glad he is there, hoping to get some closure on this situation? Attachments:
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 3, 2020 0:33:46 GMT
I think he has a difficult situation to broach with her. How do you ask if a nun fancies you enough to give up her career? Especially when you have been escorting a stunningly beautiful and wealthy woman in full view? I'm not surprised he doesn't know how to ask her.
What would you ask in his situation?
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Post by clarinetjamie on Mar 5, 2020 7:19:41 GMT
I don't think she wants him there right away. I mean as far as she knows he's an engaged man and has no reciprocal feelings for her. I think she is probably thinking why does this man keep torchering me. As for Georg he had just broken it off with Elsa and I doubt other than the walk out to Maria he had thought much about what he was going to say to her, but he knew needed to tell her as soon as possible to keep her from leaving again. He's probably nervous because he had already ran her off once and I'm sure at this point he suspects she had feelings for him, but is still uncertain about whether or not she will act on them or is still contemplating becoming a nun. At any rate I think his vulnerability and nervousness are adorable.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 9, 2020 15:17:52 GMT
I think he is relieved that the Elsa breakup conversation is behind him. He had to know deep down that he was going to break up with her once Maria returned, so I'm sure he was stressing about when it would happen/how to make it happen/how it would ultimately go. Elsa let him off very easily in my opinion. So, the weight of the Elsa problem is off his shoulders. I think he knows that Maria came back because she had feelings for him. Why else would she? It seems too unlikely that she would feel so guilty about leaving the children or so strongly about fulfilling her agreement with the family that she would return for the remainder of the summer (a couple of weeks?) after she left in the middle of the night and has been gone for a week or more sorting things out in her mind at the abbey. Plus, I think he saw her reaction on the terrace when Brigitta told her about the engagement. He knows she likes him. He knows that she knows that she's not suited to be a nun. I don't think he so much needs to convince her to give up her chosen path (because she already has), as he needs to convince her that he loves her and that she belongs with them. He needs to gain her trust back. I agree that he has not thought at all about what he is going to say. He just ran out there to be alone with her. He is nervous, but I think in his own way, very excited. He can finally go after her with a clear conscience.
Maria, on the other hand, is suffering and wants to be left alone. She knows he will ask questions that she doesn't want to answer, and she doesn't have it in her to pretend to be happy about his engagement again. She has to be thinking that she misread everything from him all summer. That they aren't friends, that he didn't have feelings for her, so why would he be approaching her with his casual "Hallo"? He is happy to see her, which is a complete contrast from her posture, which says that if it were at all acceptable, she would get up off of that bench and run away from him.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 10, 2020 0:50:32 GMT
One of the problems for her is that with his opening questions, he really puts her on the spot: "Why did you go back to the Abbey?" and "Why did you come back?" Poor girl! What is she supposed to say? All she can do is fudge it, and they nearly don't get back on track.
He is also quite provocative, goading her into saying things "Only the children?" when he must know she couldn't say the truth as it is too direct..."Because I love you"- embarrassing to say,even if he does love her, excruciating if he doesn't actually love her after all.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 11, 2020 15:53:55 GMT
Good point. I wonder why he opened with such direct questioning. Did he think she would just blurt out the truth because that's what she always does? Though, I think he knows the truth in this case, and would understand that she could never say it to him because he is (as far as she knows) engaged to someone else.
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Mar 13, 2020 2:23:04 GMT
I think the reason Georg was so direct with his questions, was because it is in his nature. Something that was engrained in him since his younger days, maybe?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 16, 2020 23:43:09 GMT
I love your avatar Silver-White-Winters. It looks like the same shot as mine, but from a different angle. I LOVE that she is so shy in this moment that she can't meet his eyes, and he is so overcome that he seems to be even more intense and overpowering than usual. It's one of the best moments in the film in my opinion. Why do you like it? Oh wait, this is the gazebo thread...
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 17, 2020 0:39:05 GMT
Do we mind which thread it is when the subject is so dreamy?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 17, 2020 13:15:51 GMT
Well, in that case, what does everyone think about the moment Maria is dancing the Laendler with Georg but can't meet his eyes?
The dance up to this point has been all smiles and good fun. To show the children how it's done of course. Until this moment when they are dancing so closely and the mood changes. She doesn't know what to do, so she just shyly looks down. He almost seems to puff out his chest more, I think because he realizes that she likes him, and makes him swell with masculine pride. Though at the same moment, he realizes how much he likes her, which is why is gaze is so focused. They liked each other as friends before this, but I think this is the romantic realization moment for both of them.
Thoughts?
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Mar 17, 2020 17:46:49 GMT
I don't remember where I got my avatar from. Maybe Pinterest. Anyway, this scene makes me swoon in a hardcore way. The looks and the intensity, both. Not sure why.
Speaking of the Laendler scene, last year I went to a thrift store and found a SoM decorative plate. It is one of my favorite things!
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 17, 2020 19:37:02 GMT
What would have happened if Maria wasn't a good dancer? Would he still have fallen for her?
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Mar 20, 2020 18:25:36 GMT
What would have happened if Maria wasn't a good dancer? Would he still have fallen for her? Most definitely. Something like having the inability to dance would be easy to overlook. He loves her too much that he'd probably overlook it, as there's many other reason why he loves her. Plus, he was already in love with her before the Laendler, in my opinion.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 21, 2020 13:32:11 GMT
What would have happened if Maria wasn't a good dancer? Would he still have fallen for her? I think yes. Though, the Laendler was such a pivotal point in their relationship. I think they both realized they were falling for each other in that moment. So, if this dance had never happened, when would the major realizations happen? What would be a scenario when they could be alone together (I know they weren't alone during the Laendler, but it kind of felt like they were) to fall in love other than dancing at the party? Would Elsa have followed Maria to her room/would she have been as upset about Max inviting her to dinner had she not seen the Laendler? Maybe Maria gets invited to dinner and joins and then she and Georg meet out on the terrace to get some air later in the evening and they fall in love then? I'm sure Georg would be happy to teach her to dance with him.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 21, 2020 22:57:47 GMT
I also want to start a discussion on his use of her name "Maria." I LOVE how when he first says it, she just completely stops in her tracks. What are your thoughts? YES! I love this too! I like how you point out that it stops her in her tracks. She's so hurt. She literally has her back to him and is walking away. Then he says the frauline-less Maria and she stops. Do you think a little part of her is wondering why he is torturing her? She's out there to be alone with her thoughts, and in he comes asking questions that she is too embarrassed to truthfully answer, wants her to stay (she thinks with Elsa there too), then calls her Maria (suggesting that they are friends? equals? what does she think this means at this point?). She has to be thinking - my heart is broken enough, why are you making this harder on me, go back to your fiancee. Of course, he soon tells her what's going on, but those few seconds after he has said her name are fun to analyse. THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 21, 2020 22:58:16 GMT
What would have happened if Maria wasn't a good dancer? Would he still have fallen for her? Most definitely. Something like having the inability to dance would be easy to overlook. He loves her too much that he'd probably overlook it, as there's many other reason why he loves her. Plus, he was already in love with her before the Laendler, in my opinion. Ooh, I love theories on when they fell in love. I always feel like it's during the Laendler. You think earlier Silver-White-Winters? Do tell!
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 21, 2020 23:01:07 GMT
I am here 10000% for this content. She’s probably seen a shirtless man, maybe even men in the buff, but given how naive and wide eyed she is, I gather it wasn’t for the purposes of romance. I think this was her first passionate skin to skin event so to speak. The wedding night? I can only imagine. She most likely has an idea of how it looks and works, but what a specimen she has acquired in Georg! For a first time she couldn’t have had a better one. I believe she did impress him. She was firm and kind... Anyone have a favorite "first time" fanfic they want to give a shout out to? I can't handle anything too overly graphic or vulgar, but I do really like thinking about how these two characters would be together. I like "Come Away With Me" by IDontKnowYourSignal. Its on ff.net. Anyone else read that one? I know. This question should probably be in a story thread or this whole downhill topic should have probably been its own thread. It used to bother me how off topic some of these discussions got because I could never find what I was looking for. Now, I'm contributing to the chaos. Even when I was a more active admin, I didn't really enforce thread discipline. because who cares, it's all yummy! (you know, I've written a ton of vulgar explicit fanfic about M&G but I don't think I've written a wedding night story!)
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Mar 22, 2020 3:19:47 GMT
Most definitely. Something like having the inability to dance would be easy to overlook. He loves her too much that he'd probably overlook it, as there's many other reason why he loves her. Plus, he was already in love with her before the Laendler, in my opinion. Ooh, I love theories on when they fell in love. I always feel like it's during the Laendler. You think earlier Silver-White-Winters? Do tell! I think it was a "love at first sight" type of thing. Or at least it was a little bit. Georg first sees Maria as this young spitfire who has a natural beauty. In a way, she reminds him of Agathe. She wasn't even there for an hour, before she questioned his decision on using a whistle to call the children. She challenged him since day one. Over the course of the movie timeline (before the Laendler), Georg has watched Maria and how she interacts with the children. He also over time, probably thought about the little and unique things about her. Only during the Laendler does the realization of, "I love you." hit Georg like a ton of bricks. It's hard to explain, via typing. Basically, a classic Hallmark, love at first sight, type of thing. If that made sense?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 25, 2020 20:28:07 GMT
Is there a thread somewhere discussing the background music during the gazebo scene, and how the different songs of the movie are playing for different parts of the scene? It's subtle magic.
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Apr 26, 2020 1:43:01 GMT
Is there a thread somewhere discussing the background music during the gazebo scene, and how the different songs of the movie are playing for different parts of the scene? It's subtle magic. There isn't, to my knowledge. I could be wrong though.
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 26, 2020 19:10:59 GMT
What would have happened if Maria wasn't a good dancer? Would he still have fallen for her? there would be many other opportunities, a new puppet show, a new song scene like edelweiss, a play with the children etc... the laendler scene is stronger and more impressive for a movie though. It is like a bomb that we are waiting for it to explode... Georg loved too much his family and his country and knew he should leave at some point. Elsa was pure entertainment and socializing, a well-bred beauty suitable for an aristocrat strolling around from salon to salon. She could not support him and the children like Maria could. Maria was a working girl who was going to be a nun and yet she knew how to have fun, play, sing, cycle, and canoe. Because she believed deeply in her values,and loved god, she was willing to quit the world and live in the abbey. Maria was not searching like the baroness. She knew exactly what she had to do. And this made her passionate about her goals. I believe she would be an excellent nun, if the captain had not appeared in her way. She would be marvellous at an orphanage or at a school. I do not think that anyone else would have managed to blow her mind as Georg did. I believe that Maria represents in a way the soul of Austria whereas Elsa is the showing-off facade of Austria, like the edelweiss in the mountains on the one hand and the glittering salons and waltzes on the other hand.
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 26, 2020 19:26:43 GMT
One of the problems for her is that with his opening questions, he really puts her on the spot: "Why did you go back to the Abbey?" and "Why did you come back?" Poor girl! What is she supposed to say? All she can do is fudge it, and they nearly don't get back on track. He is also quite provocative, goading her into saying things "Only the children?" when he must know she couldn't say the truth as it is too direct..."Because I love you"- embarrassing to say,even if he does love her, excruciating if he doesn't actually love her after all. Men are more direct than women when speaking. He did not understand why she left so suddenly without explanations and left them all in wonder. He believed her excuse that she missed life at the abbey and went back to become a nun, so he felt in a way betrayed and fooled because, during laendler, he felt her intense passion and her falling in love with him, her bewilderment, her not being able to look at him in the eyes, he saw her red face and felt her breathlessness. So after breaking up with Elsa it is natural that he wants to unlock her and hear, by her own words, the answer he already knows (after having seen her crash when hearing about the engagement), that she came back for him because she loves him. There is a videoclip discussion between CP and JA about this scene. Please listen after 03.00 what CP says... www.youtube.com/watch?v=PueLaUztFhQ&t=349s
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 26, 2020 19:46:45 GMT
Do you think Maria has ever been touched by a man before the gazebo? Do you think she has ever seen a man without a shirt on? What do you think she knows about the wedding night? She seems super naive. She probably didn't learn too much at the convent except that it's a sin before marriage. She does seem to catch on quickly, and is kissing him as much as he is kissing her at the end of Something Good. Maybe being with Georg like this is another adventure she is longing for? hahahaha I cannot avoid the temptation of answering this quote!! I must tell you all that I am sooooo happy I found you, I thought I was the only mad one with this movie in the whole world!! Maria is a peasant girl. So when you live in a village, in farms, with animals, people working at the fields, it is natural to see shirtless men. And of course she had communication with men. She was not isolated. She lived by her own from 15 and at 18 she studied in a college. Maria was not brought up in a golden cage secluded from world in order not to have seen anything. But because she had this inclination towards religion and abbeys, I believe she was a fervent believer, she had a connection with the church since she was a little girl, so she did not have any boyfriend as this is considered as a sin. And when she was faced with the question: world or abbey, get married or become a nun, she chose the second. I imagine maybe for the serene life, the program, all the religiousness of the environment, the work and all she thought she would be able to offer, the purity of her mind and soul, and I am sure, her inability to cope with a life with no passion and meaningful offer. Now about kisses and wedding night knowledge, all these questions would have a meaning IF she was not in absolute love with him, if it was about a superficial and arranged match with no mutual feelings. But this is not our case. They are passionate for each other. So insticts take the lead. You do not have to be super well-read in order to know what happens during wedding night or how to kiss the person you have fallen for. Libido is not about techniques, strategies and knowledge, it is about feelings and insticts. ReverendCaptain, by asking whether she has seen a shirtless man, do you imply that if she had seen in the past a shirtless man, she would have fallen for him, or at least felt that she was meant to marry a man and not become a nun? and that she would not have decided to be a nun? I think that this question looks like the other one, if she has fallen for the first man she saw in front of her when she went out of the abbey...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 27, 2020 14:34:27 GMT
Maria was not searching like the baroness. She knew exactly what she had to do. And this made her passionate about her goals. I believe that Maria represents in a way the soul of Austria whereas Elsa is the showing-off facade of Austria, like the edelweiss in the mountains on the one hand and the glittering salons and waltzes on the other hand. I like how you brought back the conversation by the lake "searching" comment and compared it with Maria. You are right, Maria is very confident about her path and not in that same vulnerable position as Elsa. Maria is the soul of Austria and Elsa is the facade is such a great analogy! I'm glad Georg picked the right one!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 27, 2020 15:05:04 GMT
Do you think Maria has ever been touched by a man before the gazebo? Do you think she has ever seen a man without a shirt on? What do you think she knows about the wedding night? She seems super naive. She probably didn't learn too much at the convent except that it's a sin before marriage. She does seem to catch on quickly, and is kissing him as much as he is kissing her at the end of Something Good. Maybe being with Georg like this is another adventure she is longing for? hahahaha I cannot avoid the temptation of answering this quote!! I must tell you all that I am sooooo happy I found you, I thought I was the only mad one with this movie in the whole world!! ReverendCaptain, by asking whether she has seen a shirtless man, do you imply that if she had seen in the past a shirtless man, she would have fallen for him, or at least felt that she was meant to marry a man and not become a nun? and that she would not have decided to be a nun? I think that this question looks like the other one, if she has fallen for the first man she saw in front of her when she went out of the abbey... I am so happy to have found this site/all of you as well. I lurked around here last summer and then finally decided to create an account last fall because I had so many things that I just HAD to say about this movie. It is such a fun escape. I do not think that Maria would have fallen for any random man that she saw shirtless, or that seeing a shirtless man would have somehow changed her mind on her vocation. I think she was completely committed to being a nun, and nothing could sway her from that, especially just someone who looked attractive on the surface. But then, she fell in love, and everything started to change. I think she would have loved Georg regardless of how he looked. She is not a shallow person. I was just wondering how experienced/sheltered or informed/uninformed people thought she was. Previous generations often had a hard time talking to their children about sex, and there was not the same level of information available to access independently (like in books or on the internet). I was just wondering if she was lacking in even basic information such as what a man's body looks like (since people were more modest in their dress in these days), or did she have some knowledge going into this.
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