|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 15, 2013 1:23:41 GMT
Maria returns from the Abbey. He asks her why she ran away and she says, "Please don't ask me. Anyway, the reason no longer exists." Well, one, that's an oddly belt-and-suspenders answer, wouldn't either response do? And I always thought excuse that sounded SO ridiculously transparent, like what other reason would that be besides a broken heart? "I thought the Abbey's softball team was going to make the playoffs, but they blew it?" "I went back for Sister Berthe's birthday party, but they rescheduled it for the fall?"
Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe it is a really believable excuse . What do you think? Does Georg see through it?
|
|
|
|
Post by ForeverJulie on Aug 15, 2013 3:26:14 GMT
I think the "please don't ask me" was more of a gut response. After that, you, me, and Maria all know that the Captain would certainly expect an answer when he asks a question, I think that's why she says "anyway, the reason no longer exists". If you think about the letter she left for him saying that she missed the abbey and had to go back right away, she could mean that she doesn't miss the abbey any more (all of this is a lie of course, but at least her lie has continuity).
I like the think that Georg knows she's not telling him the truth, or at least the whole truth here. I even believe he knew she had feelings for him. However, he surely has insecurities. Does she like me enough to give up the entire life she planned for herself for something totally different? Does she like me enough to deal with everything people will say about us and the way her life will change? Or is this all infatuation on her part? Which is why, I think, he doesn't come right out with how he feels as well. He may have walked into the situation sure of himself, but with Maria not reeeeally revealing anything, he is hesitant to as well. Luckily, it only takes him a few minutes (and seeing Maria get a little angry about the Baroness) for him to put himself out there.
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 15, 2013 4:13:36 GMT
Nooooo! don't make me over analyze this line! it is going in my next chapter and i want it to stay poignant and sappy and everything i love about this movie!!!!!!
sigh. now you've done it.
i love that line. i don't think she is saying the second part to him. she's saying it to herself. ok, she says it TO him, but she says it for her own benefit.
ok, the scene... she says this. she doesn't answer the question. then baroness buttinski shows up and maria congratulates them on the engagement. i need to go watch that scene because i think i always look at elsa's face when she says this, not his. does G make a connection between "the reason no longer exists" and "may i wish you every happiness, baroness... and you, too, Captain."? i bet he does.
oh, the gut wrenching. the unspoken tennis match that is this scene!!!! I CAN'T STAND IT!!!!
sorry, i think they spiked my drink at the coffee shop...
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 15, 2013 23:47:10 GMT
so, went back and watched the scene and the only time they show his face is while elsa is saying, 'thank you, my dear' and he just stands there with some goofy grin. i wish i hadn't seen it now. it makes no sense to me. or maybe he is happy a cat fight didn't break out. or disappointed but smiling to hide the disappointment. or just glad EP remembered her line.
it makes no sense. i wanted him to look uncomfortable. or something. like he looks when she says she is only staying until arrangements can be made for another governess.
wow. you've really done it.
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 16, 2013 0:18:35 GMT
Oh, no, please forgive me. (I am tempted to say, "it was wrong of me.") Lemacd, I promise it will not dampen the glory of your story one bit (you had Elsa dance the Laendler and made the world a better place, for heaven's sake). . And think how much comfort and joy this exchange brought me on a difficult day! I loved everything you both have to say so far (and hope others will chime in).
In no particular order:
1. It's one of the best scenes in the film IMHO.
2. I never noticed that she spoke that line primarily to the Baroness and THEN added him.
3. I love the idea that she may have been directing either of her first two remarks more to herself. Like, she's kind of out of control, thinking out loud, a kind of "I've Got Confidence" vibe..
4. Georg: I DO agree with Forever that he knows there was more going on in Maria's mind and heart.. How couldn't he, after the Laendler? I myself (and we had a great exchange about this in another thread ) am not sure I think he is ready, at this moment, to acknowledge, even to himself, that he loves her. But I do agree that he's in turmoil, in the same way he was in turmoil after the Laendler, and slips behind his haughty aristocratic mask to hide, to regain control. That's what you guys told me he was doing in that dreadful scene where Max invites Maria to dinner, and that's what I think his goofy grin is here. He's acting like a jerk, but I love him anyway.
5 And so, Lemacd, I hope I have not spoiled things for you - I think that behind that mask (and that's what it looks like, a mask) is suffering that you will do a beautiful job bringing to life.
What do others think?
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 16, 2013 0:36:49 GMT
OH and also, don't you love that she swallows, I think right before she congratulates them? And the way she races past them on the stairs, just managing to hold herself together long enough to answer his question about staying? And then how he looks puzzled but forces himself to refocus on Elsa? He pats her hand comfortingly, and she looks like she needs it, but so does he...
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 16, 2013 0:37:25 GMT
well, after you say such nice things about me, how can i not forgive you.
yes, everything is only beginning to unravel for this man. we always talk about maria having her life planned out by wanting to be a nun, but the same could be said for him, too. marry elsa and be very happy. that was the plan. it was a good plan. in theory, of course, but a good plan nonetheless.
a lot has said about his control issues (for lack of a better term). he's a military guy. stick to the plan. everyone has to follow the plan. to quote a completely unrelated movie "follow orders or people die". ok, extreme. i digress. so i totally agree with the whole mask thing. it is just such a weird mask.
upon further review, i guess his look of disappointment (i like your word, "turmoil") was better served after he asked if she planned to stay. i just love the gut wrenching romance and it just would have kicked it into high frenzy if maria could have seen him squirm when she congratulated them. just a little.
you haven't spoiled things. i know i say this for every chapter, but this one is just not coming together the way i want it to. i know it will eventually, but until it does... like raising my boys. i know they are pretty cool human beings and will grow up to rock whatever world they storm, but until then i'm fishing electronics out of toilets and refereeing the fights over hot wheel cars. it isn't the fun part yet.
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 16, 2013 0:57:27 GMT
Great idea for a someday thread....shots you'd have loved to see. I have one in Monday already.
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 16, 2013 2:49:16 GMT
i canNOT believe i never mentioned the swallow part because YES i think that part is so YES. thanks for bring it up.
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 16, 2013 21:06:33 GMT
I watched this again. OK, like five times. One, do you notice that Elsa is clinging to his hand, not the other way around? Two, I think when he says, "you are back to, uh, stay?" I think he really clearly is saying, "there's more going on here, isn't there?" Elsa's "thank you dear," also seems to be speaking volumes, a silent apology for having acted badly. It really is an amazing scene.
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 16, 2013 21:26:29 GMT
it is amazing. and i can't take my eyes off elsa for much of it. the way she looks at him when they go inside, too. i wonder if she sees maria isn't out to get her... they are both at the mercy of one man. drama!
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 18, 2013 23:40:42 GMT
This was a fun dialogue, and I hope we can get some others to weigh in!
|
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Aug 19, 2013 0:18:27 GMT
Yes! It's that expression he gives after Maria congratulates them...to me that is the grin of a man who is trying his damnedest to look like he is pleased and proud to be marrying Elsa, but inside he is feeling sick because the object of his infatuation is standing before him, and from then on he knows he has a huge dilemma to resolve...quickly before she disappears again (hence his question "You are here to stay?", so he knows how long he has got).
I also LOVE this scene, for all the reasons you've given above:there is so much unspoken inference and body language, it is delicious! Great thread!
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 19, 2013 0:42:49 GMT
Oh, indigo, you always nail these things! You are EXACTLY right about why he says, "you ARE back to, uh, stay?" Here's a picture of that sickly grin:  |
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 19, 2013 2:08:31 GMT
you nailed it... he's becoming unraveled. consider the torment of her leaving must have been. he probably hated that she left but it made things easy. now she's back and he clearly wants to be happy, but now it's more complicated. imagine if the maria/liesl song happened at this point... "join a convent, liesl. love is so freakin' complicated. waiting for the sun to come out? torture. wait a year or two? or three or four. heck give it a decade. men."
sigh. after scenes like this, it kinda helps to go read a story like the honeymoon or buttons...
or maybe that is just me.
|
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Aug 19, 2013 22:48:04 GMT
Haha!
And don't forget he really doesn't know what Maria thinks of him yet: if he goes for Maria and she rebuffs him, if Elsa finds out, he may lose her. If he doesn't go for Maria, he may be locked into an unsatisfactory marriage with Elsa and forever regret his mistake, not least the children's loss.
It's enough to make a good man squirm!
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 19, 2013 22:59:52 GMT
Oh, my, indigo. I never thought before of the risk that he could lose Elsa if she finds him out. (At the ball he certainly tried to make things up to her after the Laendler.) Yet another reason for me to believe that he is not at all sure what to do. I personally think he makes his decision when he's on that balcony. That's why he jumps, like, a mile in the air when Elsa says, "There you are!"
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 19, 2013 23:45:06 GMT
he should squirm. just sayin'.  |
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Aug 20, 2013 23:09:46 GMT
Yes, it's a balcony job alright: the bilateral hand-patting on the balustrade (more subtle emotional displacement gestures from Mr P), tells you the moment he decides he has to ditch Elsa for the (as yet untested) Maria - and it could still all end in disaster, especially as Elsa may well leave immediately for Vienna, leaving him high and dry if he doesn't get his gal.
Ah, squirm on: don't you just love it?!!
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 20, 2013 23:50:21 GMT
I think there's some ear-pulling or scratching in there too, isn't there?
|
|
|
|
Post by tranquillity on Aug 25, 2013 13:01:11 GMT
Oh, this is my favorite scene, thanks for bringing it up!
I think, just as someone else has also stated earlier, that he is utterly confused at this moment. Pleasantly surprised, that is for sure, but shocked and embarrassed. And like most of men, a bit blind for the others feelings: he just cannot read Maria yet. He will learn it later on in their marriage. In my opinion, Maria is good at "acting": she is faking to be well-decided and hiding her deepest feelings.
The captain needs Elsa's confirmation in the balcony scene later that evening. This is where he will decide to go after her. He is trying hard to hide his turmoil but fails in the end. Elsa is seeing through him, as always.
On the old board I read a very funny and moving story about the captain's thoughts on the balcony, right before Elsa shows up in her red dress: very audacious and hot thoughts about Maria while watching the poor thing sadly wandering in the garden. Loved it.
|
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Aug 26, 2013 23:10:17 GMT
Another factor in his turmoil was touched upon before, but is often overlooked, which is that HE may be besotted over her, Maria may also be besotted over him, but that still doesn't mean she will necessarily abandon her lifetime commitment to God. Also, he must be wondering (being a decent sort of guy), whether it would be fair of him to even ask her to marry him, because it might present her with a very difficult dilemma.
So from his point of view, even if he senses Maria loves him, she won't necessarily accept his proposal, may run back to the abbey. Elsa finds out, abandons him, and hey! he's lost both of them, and is Norman No Mates again...hmm! Tricky problem, and I can see he is just desperately trying to work out what to do.
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 27, 2013 0:40:19 GMT
Yes, I need to inject more of the idea that he is assessing the risks into that little piece I wrote last week. Although how many minutes do we think Georg spent in his entire life being Norman NoMates? (I LOVE that!) LIke, five? ten?
I always thought that he looks so grave, looking down on her that way, and while I think that's partly feeling guilty for having hurt her (and Elsa), it makes sense that it's also because of the enormity of what he's about to do.
I wonder how significant he thought it would be to risk the scandal of marrying his governess. Fanfic writers often opine that he isn't worried about that kind of thing.
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 27, 2013 15:05:09 GMT
I don’t think he is considering the risk of scandal. I truly do not think our captain cares about what people think of him. I know he is very militaristic and highly aristocratic and those things do dictate a lot of what he does, but I also think he is a romantic. I submit his first marriage and his love and devotion to country as evidence. I also believe that the winds of political change have disillusioned him somewhat about what people consider proper. I think there is probably some point when all of this crosses his mind but in any significant way.
When it does cross his mind, however, I think it is only in his thoughts to protect Maria, not himself. I honestly don’t think he cares about it. In real life, he went away until the wedding. This does very little for fanfic, I suppose, except that I get the impression from the book that he wooed her and she fell in love with him through the letters he wrote at this time. I find this incredibly moving. If you knew my engagement story, you might understand this. But that is irrelevant… the point is, I think any thought he gives to reputation is mostly to spare Maria scandal.
It’s been said and I agree that the risk he is weighing is “safe” Elsa (safe… ha, good one, laurel) vs. “unknown” Maria. The unknown is not only whether Maria would give into her feelings for him and give up her life plan but whether or not he should (doh! See what I did there?) even ask her to.
The question burning in his brain, I think, is “can I marry someone when I’m in love with someone else?”
Long answer and a bit rambling, but I avoided housework so it’s all good.
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 27, 2013 16:56:57 GMT
what I LOVE LOVE LOVE about this group is how we can turn a moment over and over and find new beauty and meaning in it, OK, maybe not the beauty and meaning we get from real life, but still. I went back and looked at how I wrote about this in fanfic, and I definitely agreed that he didn't care about scandal for its own sake, but he did worry about her reputation (and repercussions for the children). And yes, that the world was crumbling around them, so who cares? So I agree, but I love the way you wrote about it here.
I wonder though if he is really weighing Elsa vs Maria. To me, it's more like first realizing he can't marry Elsa and then deciding what to do about the problem called Maria (OK, not as clever as lemacd, but I'm trying). I think I said in one story that he realizes he will not marry Elsa in any case - that he knows now that he must marry for love.
It is a good reminder that people never get together without navigating a terrain littered with risks and fears; it's rather a miracle anyone makes it there.
Good idea = fanfic letters between them during engagement. I don't like much of what I've seen of that ilk before. This group could totally nail it.
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 27, 2013 19:08:29 GMT
so... just read something somewhere and the idea was put forth that the reason he proposed to elsa was because maria's abrupt departure the night of the party started the rumor mill going full throttle. perhaps he did care about rumors. but i still hold to the idea that it was more to spare maria and in this case elsa than himself.
i almost couldn't find this discussion yesterday because it started as the 'please don't ask me' discussion.
it always comes back to the balcony scene.
and it is a miracle anyone makes it there. i'm often at a loss as to how i haven't managed to scare off my husband of 15 years already. or at least have him consider having me committed.
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 27, 2013 20:48:09 GMT
Yes, it is a bit of a problem that these discussions meander and are hard to track down. But I am OCD enough in my real life. I refuse to worry about it here.
I never thought he proposed to Elsa because of the rumor mill. I thought he proposed to Elsa because he was rigidly fixed on it from the beginning, the children need a mother, he's not going to do any better than this, and why the heck not.
I always loved the balcony scene but recent exchanges have made me love it even more - it IS pivotal!
I've been married for 26 years. The only bigger miracle than getting here, has been staying here, believe me.
|
|
|
|
Post by indigoblue on Aug 27, 2013 23:50:32 GMT
I'll wade in with my tuppence-worth here, and say that my feeling is that the idea of someone like Georg falling for the governess in the 1930s was completely verboten(off-limits for the English-speaking). So presumably that is a big barrier for all those times he notices her trim figure, all the times he wants to laugh at her funny remarks and expressions etc, because It Wasn't Done. So all the time there is this big Wave of Attraction welling up, getting bigger, when suddenly it bursts through the barrier of Unacceptability because it is all he can think about.
For me, I think that moment is at the end of The Laendler, when they are held together in suspense. It might explain part of his reaction to Max's request for her to attend dinner, as G is still grappling with the implications of what has happened, and also What Elsa Might Think; but I think after that, the question in his mind is not whether he loves her,or whether it is acceptable or not, but whether she loves him and would consider abandoning her commitment to God.(And also, is it fair to ask her to marry him and to give up convent life?)
Glad I've got that off my chest before bed!
Would it be possible to alter the titles of the threads to include new topics if things meander far from the subject?
|
|
|
|
Post by augiesannie on Aug 28, 2013 0:12:18 GMT
Yes, it is. And because you are so clever, I'm going to give you a few days to think of a fitting title for this one! (if you can't get to it, I can do it, but I am match for your indigo-sharp wit).
This was a beautiful post.
|
|
|
|
Post by lemacd on Aug 28, 2013 1:05:20 GMT
i don't think the movie reason he gets engaged to elsa is due to rumors. but in an AU kind of way, i can see a conversation b/w M and G where she asks why he did it and that being his reason... it's just an alternative interpretation that i thought was interesting.
i always seem to be in the minority when it comes to interpretation and that is fine... and i agree that there was a collective frown on someone like G even considering marriage to someone like M. but it really did happen and there didn't really seem to be any indication in the true story that the class distinction was an issue for either of them. so every rule as it's exceptions. i remain committed to the idea that his reluctance was due to the presence of elsa in the picture and the fact that maria was to become a nun.
|
|
