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Post by indigoblue on Jan 21, 2023 0:14:22 GMT
I've often wondered about that! His question could be taken either way, but actually, for him to labour the question "Why didn't you say goodbye" is pointless when they both know what the real issue is.
Maria responds "Please don't ask me, the reason no longer exists", so she is answering the question "Why did you leave?". The 'reason for leaving' was that she wanted to be in a relationship with him, but now he is engaged to Elsa, her opportunity no longer exists.
So I think Georg is asking "Why did you leave?". But I do love pondering...good question!
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 21, 2023 13:19:20 GMT
To go back to "you're not going to have a new governess anymore ... you're going to have a new mother." There is something about the sweet way he says "any more" that makes me think that he is trying to talk himself into believing that things can go back to the way they were before Agathe died. Even though we all know they won't, not with Elsa.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 23, 2023 20:46:06 GMT
Yes, he is absolutely trying to talk himself into this working out. My problem with that is, he is too smart to think it. He knows who Elsa is. She likes glittering parties in Vienna and nights on the town. She's not going to go picnicking with his unruly children and sing songs in the garden. How did he get to this point where "We are all going to be very happy"? Have G&E not talked about their expectations in this marriage at all?!
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Jan 24, 2023 3:56:30 GMT
When Georg asks "Why did you?", do you think he is asking "Why did you leave without saying goodbye?" (as they were just talking about), or is he actually asking "Why did you leave?" Most likely a combination of both, I'd imagine. A case of asking one question and then implying that you want to ask another question but are nervous for the answer. Either way, you can see in that scene that Maria and Georg have a lot of questions surrounding the time Maria left for the Abbey, and in between that and her return. It's written on their faces quite clearly. Of course, there are a couple of other emotions, but the most prominent are sadness and questioning. If that made sense?
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MeltIntoSpring
Junior Member
"Enchanting little ritual. Something you learned at the.. Abbey?"
Posts: 75
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Post by MeltIntoSpring on Jan 24, 2023 16:18:45 GMT
My heart breaks every time for her when I watch that scene, and I always end up saying "don't worry love, you'll be kissing each other in a couple of hours!" lol. I think he knows why she came back, it's written all over her face, and he has enough worldly experience to notice someone going through turmoil but falling in love with someone (especially if you believe it to be unrequited) is quite scary, even for someone like Georg. Then again, "he notices everybody and everything" so I could be wrong.
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Jan 24, 2023 19:46:31 GMT
My heart breaks for Maria, as well. I can't imagine all of the emotional turmoil she's going through; the confusion of first love, being thrown from your life's original path, threat of the Anchluss (did I spell that correctly?), and finding out that your love is unrequited- albeit temporarily (but Maria doesn't know that).
Are there any fics that focus on this specific scene? Or, is anyone in the middle of writing one that we can look forward to?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 25, 2023 21:45:04 GMT
I've often wondered about that! His question could be taken either way, but actually, for him to labour the question "Why didn't you say goodbye" is pointless when they both know what the real issue is. Maria responds "Please don't ask me, the reason no longer exists", so she is answering the question "Why did you leave?". The 'reason for leaving' was that she wanted to be in a relationship with him, but now he is engaged to Elsa, her opportunity no longer exists. So I think Georg is asking "Why did you leave?". But I do love pondering...good question! I agree. Why did you leave without telling anyone is somewhat of a pointless question at this point. Though, if he is asking "Why did you leave?", I think it is interesting that during the gazebo scene, he opens with the same question. "I was wondering two things - why did you run away to the abbey and what was it that made you come back?" If he already asked her why she ran away when they were on the terrace, and she answered with "Please don't ask me. Anyway the reason no longer exists", why does he think he is going to get a new answer if he asks again? Because they are alone without threat of interruption? Because he's asking in a slightly different way, so maybe she'd let some clue slip?
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 27, 2023 0:19:39 GMT
Yes, I've wondered about this! The conclusion I came to was that he didn't know what to say when he sat down beside her. He had made a dash for the gazebo in the hope of catching her there, but not had time to think what to say. So, having taken his place on the seat next to her, he suddenly found himself tongue-tied (which I think CP conveys well). What should he say? And as so often happens, the thing which is uppermost in his mind pops up, and it is "Why did you run away to the abbey, and what was it that made you come back?".
If you think about it, it is a really difficult thing to expect her to answer, being so direct. What was he expecting her to say?! Replying "I was in love with you/Elsa goaded me etc" would be difficult for a younger woman in her position, as well as "The RM told me to try my luck"! So nil points for tact/sensitivity there, but actually it sets up that lovely swoop he does next into the coy boy when he says "Things were all wrong when you were away". I think this is one of the vital scenes in the film, where CvT morphs from autocrat into the gentle, sensitive man we all know and love, and you know the rest. So I suppose the screenwriters deliberately made him provocative at the beginning to give that autocratic edge before the delicious softness.
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galan
Full Member
I have destroyed this story multiple times, and I regret nothing.
Posts: 119
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Post by galan on Feb 2, 2023 23:38:38 GMT
reverendcaptain, sorry for taking so long to answer your question, and I'm not sure I really will. So, apologies all round! Also, I don't know how turn off my popup blocker and I'm too lazy to find your actual question. (It's been two weeks of vacation; the cat and I are competing for prime mattress real estate in Winter Nap Olympics 2023.) The Baroness always has something of a flat affect to me. Whether learned or natural, some people are not naturally very emotional. And that's okay, as long as it doesn't harm other people. When the Captain enters the story, he has a similar or even worse affect due to cirsumstances. But he changes, she doesn't. She's watching him growing more attracted to Maria, and being upset is understandable; she's put time and energy into this relationship, it's understandable to want to protect that investment. And with that word, I think that gives an idea of how I view her thoughts on their relationship. But she's playing with the children. Was that her idea? I tend to think so, given how she complains to Max. But she doesn't say anything to Georg, despite there being plenty of reasons to say so if he wanted her to play games with the children to get used to them, plus his just literally pushing them to go off and play. And the return to flat affect for him. So my thought is that, since she is used to him being very flat like that, she is continuing to treat him like that. The two of them are visibly unaffected--probably hiding it well--while Maria is clearly upset. The more they don't talk about Maria, the more it fades into the past in the way their pasts have, until she crashes back in and the future is unavoidable.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 3, 2023 23:45:19 GMT
Nap olympics tee-hee galan
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Feb 4, 2023 5:44:50 GMT
Nap olympics tee-hee galan Nap Olympics.... the only olympics I stand a chance at winning.
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Post by dontevenknowher on Feb 7, 2023 2:24:25 GMT
Yes, I've wondered about this! The conclusion I came to was that he didn't know what to say when he sat down beside her. He had made a dash for the gazebo in the hope of catching her there, but not had time to think what to say. So, having taken his place on the seat next to her, he suddenly found himself tongue-tied (which I think CP conveys well). What should he say? And as so often happens, the thing which is uppermost in his mind pops up, and it is "Why did you run away to the abbey, and what was it that made you come back?". If you think about it, it is a really difficult thing to expect her to answer, being so direct. What was he expecting her to say?! Replying "I was in love with you/Elsa goaded me etc" would be difficult for a younger woman in her position, as well as "The RM told me to try my luck"! So nil points for tact/sensitivity there, but actually it sets up that lovely swoop he does next into the coy boy when he says "Things were all wrong when you were away". I think this is one of the vital scenes in the film, where CvT morphs from autocrat into the gentle, sensitive man we all know and love, and you know the rest. So I suppose the screenwriters deliberately made him provocative at the beginning to give that autocratic edge before the delicious softness. This whole discussion has been rolling around in my mind for a few days now, and I’ve found myself wondering more and more if maybe he asks her these questions because he’s truly trying to decipher her feelings for him. I’ve kind of operated under the assumption that he wasn’t blind to whatever it was developing between them over the summer. But recently it occurred to me that it’s entirely possible he *was* blind to it. Yes, he would perhaps know or even acknowledge his own feelings for her, but what if he never allowed himself the possibility of detecting that she feels something in return for him. He could easily have written off whatever he felt for her as anything from misdirected gratitude to a schoolboy crush, and decided that she was just being polite and friendly in return, and he was making a mountain of a molehill. Until they dance. In that moment I wonder if he doesn’t finally see that it might not be just him. So when she disappears, I could see him thinking he was wrong and showed her too much and she got scared and ran. Realizing that his crush was gone and it was time to move back to the real world, he proposes to Elsa to secure a partner. But then Maria comes back, and now I find myself wondering if he’s asking her these questions so soon and so insistently not to get confirmation of what he guesses or suspects, but to get any sign at all that he isn’t charging at windmills. And all of this may have already been discussed earlier and I missed it, in which case I apologize for rehashing. It just kind of opened a whole new way of viewing it all that it surprised me I hadn’t considered it that way before.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 7, 2023 13:54:35 GMT
This is so beautiful dontevenknowher, and makes so much sense! In addition to the other reasons you give for why he was blind to his own feelings, we can add that he might not want to get in the way of her vocation, even if he doesn’t believe it will suit her. But I think it makes so much sense that he is asking these questions because he honestly isn’t sure what to think. The alternative - that he knows, but he’s trying to draw her out - seems kind of manipulative. And NEVER apologize for “rehashing.” There are ten years of discussion here, but the only way we keep on going is by revisiting the fine points of this movie we love so much.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 9, 2023 20:17:59 GMT
Yes, I've wondered about this! The conclusion I came to was that he didn't know what to say when he sat down beside her. He had made a dash for the gazebo in the hope of catching her there, but not had time to think what to say. So, having taken his place on the seat next to her, he suddenly found himself tongue-tied (which I think CP conveys well). What should he say? And as so often happens, the thing which is uppermost in his mind pops up, and it is "Why did you run away to the abbey, and what was it that made you come back?". If you think about it, it is a really difficult thing to expect her to answer, being so direct. What was he expecting her to say?! Replying "I was in love with you/Elsa goaded me etc" would be difficult for a younger woman in her position, as well as "The RM told me to try my luck"! So nil points for tact/sensitivity there, but actually it sets up that lovely swoop he does next into the coy boy when he says "Things were all wrong when you were away". I think this is one of the vital scenes in the film, where CvT morphs from autocrat into the gentle, sensitive man we all know and love, and you know the rest. So I suppose the screenwriters deliberately made him provocative at the beginning to give that autocratic edge before the delicious softness. This whole discussion has been rolling around in my mind for a few days now, and I’ve found myself wondering more and more if maybe he asks her these questions because he’s truly trying to decipher her feelings for him. I’ve kind of operated under the assumption that he wasn’t blind to whatever it was developing between them over the summer. But recently it occurred to me that it’s entirely possible he *was* blind to it. Yes, he would perhaps know or even acknowledge his own feelings for her, but what if he never allowed himself the possibility of detecting that she feels something in return for him. He could easily have written off whatever he felt for her as anything from misdirected gratitude to a schoolboy crush, and decided that she was just being polite and friendly in return, and he was making a mountain of a molehill. Until they dance. In that moment I wonder if he doesn’t finally see that it might not be just him. So when she disappears, I could see him thinking he was wrong and showed her too much and she got scared and ran. Realizing that his crush was gone and it was time to move back to the real world, he proposes to Elsa to secure a partner. But then Maria comes back, and now I find myself wondering if he’s asking her these questions so soon and so insistently not to get confirmation of what he guesses or suspects, but to get any sign at all that he isn’t charging at windmills. And all of this may have already been discussed earlier and I missed it, in which case I apologize for rehashing. It just kind of opened a whole new way of viewing it all that it surprised me I hadn’t considered it that way before. I always seem to cast Georg in the role of being relationship savvy, and therefore in the know that Maria is falling for him. But you are right, if you look at the actual evidence, she could very well just be acting polite and friendly with a man whom she has formed a bond with, solely because they both care for the children. She hasn't said or done anything overly flirtatious. The Laendler is when things change. They both realize that the other is falling in love, whether they have admitted to themselves that they feel the same is up for debate. I definitely think Georg thinks that he scared her away. But what other reason would she have to come back if it wasn't because of her feelings for him? Her expressions on the terrace give that away. Though maybe he is asking because he needs to hear her say it, to make it real, even though there isn't another logical explanation?
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 10, 2023 23:18:23 GMT
well, she offers the explanation that she came back to fulfill an obligation, which isn't completely ridiculous. He could think that RM made her come back even if it isn't true. I like the idea that he may think he scared her away, reverendcaptain, it sort of fits with the cautious way he approaches her, trying to appear lighthearted. "And what was it that made you come back?"
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 10, 2023 23:46:46 GMT
I agree: I think it is quite likely that Georg, in his moments of doubt, thinks that Maria
1. Is not particularly interested in him, as she has not given any overt sign that she is. 2. Was put off by him in the argument. 3. Even if she is attracted to him, she is still committed to the abbey and a religious way of life. 4. Came back to make up for 'running away' from a situation. 5. May possibly have been given a stiff talking to by the RM to this effect. 6. Felt guilty about abandoning the children, and missed them.
This is why he needs some confirmation from her that she is not only interested in him, but enough to give up her religious career. Tricky! I can see why he is on edge, because if he makes a muck of it, or she rejects him, then it will be embarrassing for him and she might prefer not to remain in the house after that. So it's a kind of do-or-die moment in the gazebo.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 11, 2023 2:10:31 GMT
I agree: I think it is quite likely that Georg, in his moments of doubt, thinks that Maria 1. Is not particularly interested in him, as she has not given any overt sign that she is. 2. Was put off by him in the argument. 3. Even if she is attracted to him, she is still committed to the abbey and a religious way of life. 4. Came back to make up for 'running away' from a situation. 5. May possibly have been given a stiff talking to by the RM to this effect. 6. Felt guilty about abandoning the children, and missed them. This is why he needs some confirmation from her that she is not only interested in him, but enough to give up her religious career. Tricky! I can see why he is on edge, because if he makes a muck of it, or she rejects him, then it will be embarrassing for him and she might prefer not to remain in the house after that. So it's a kind of do-or-die moment in the gazebo. Not to mention that he can’t go back and reconcile with Elsa. (Not that he’d want to. “I’ve been dishonest … to both of us.”)
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 12, 2023 15:19:05 GMT
When did Georg decide that he was dumping Elsa? The second he saw Maria on the terrace with his children after she returned from the abbey? When he asks "You are back to stay?" he has to have already decided, right? I mean, he couldn't be married to Elsa and have Maria living in his house as a governess. That would be a constant source of tension for everyone. Or was that his (insane) plan in the moment?
He was quiet (contemplative) at dinner, so maybe he didn't decide until then? Or maybe this was just time for him to figure out how to delicately dump Elsa? Or maybe he was deciding if Maria actually liked him or if she was just missing the children? But he saw her expression at the engagement news (I assume). He knows she came back for him. Maybe he was deciding how best to ask for Maria's love and trust?
Too many questions, I know. I guess it all goes back to my original question. At what point does Georg decide to end his engagement to Elsa?
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 12, 2023 17:16:55 GMT
reverendcaptain that is such a great question, especially for people like me who think that G's feelings for M grew very slowly (he did after all propose to Elsa!) and that it was her reappearance that pushed him over the edge and made him confront and act on his feelings for M. So, I could be talked out of it, but I like to think that Maria's reaction to the news did, in fact, have an impact on him, and his desperate "you are back to stay" was kind of a "hold on, I'm recalculating" moment, but that he was kind of in turmoil until his outburst to Elsa: "it's no use." He just looks so much lighter and confident when he shows up at the gazebo. Like I say, I could see it being earlier but somehow to me it feels so romantic to make it later.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 20, 2023 14:59:29 GMT
Do you think "You are back to stay" is his desperate plea to be given more time to figure this out? Though, how much time could there really be before September at this point? A couple weeks? How long is he hoping she is going to commit to? Longer than her original commitment? Why would she? Or is he asking if she is leaving that night after having made her peace with the children?
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 20, 2023 17:20:08 GMT
I just meant “more time” like, holy hell, I didn’t expect to see you t here, just give me a second to think kind of thing …
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 20, 2023 17:29:06 GMT
I get what you're saying. He does seem to throw this question out there as a last minute attempt to keep her from running from him. This was an almost unthinkable scenario - I'm sure he needed time to recalculate. Though, what do you think his expectations were once he has had a chance to catch his breath on this? Did he want her to stay on as governess past the summer? Or did he just want to know how much time he had to really figure this out?
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 22, 2023 23:17:48 GMT
He just didn't want her to disappear from his life as quickly as she had before (back to the Abbey). It must have stung him badly then, so when she turned up completely unexpectedly, all he could think of was to get her to stay whilst he recalibrated their relationship.
Personally I think he decided during dinner that he should ease out Elsa, because he is a different man on the balcony, wandering out on his own and then clearly transfixed by the sight of the governess. The only other option I can think of is whether he felt he had to gauge Maria's feeling for him first, before dumping Elsa. That would be harsh on Elsa, but from Georg's POV, what would he do if Maria rebuffed him or simply said she wanted to continue to be a nun?
What I am asking is, if Maria had declined him, would he have gone on to marry Elsa anyway?
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Post by dontevenknowher on Jul 25, 2023 4:27:39 GMT
I just meant “more time” like, holy hell, I didn’t expect to see you t here, just give me a second to think kind of thing … The seemingly last second nature of his asking if she’s staying, I wonder if he thinks maybe she’s just come back to say a proper goodbye before carrying on with her life? Yes, he presumably saw she had her bag and guitar, which the children carried in, but it could easily be because she has returned to mostly just say goodbye to the kids, and then be off again into the world. I think with her return at all, it’s subtly apparent to everyone she isn’t headed for a life in the habit anymore, so maybe he fears she’s going to skip through his fingers because she’s just there for a day or so?
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 28, 2023 0:08:15 GMT
I just meant “more time” like, holy hell, I didn’t expect to see you t here, just give me a second to think kind of thing … The seemingly last second nature of his asking if she’s staying, I wonder if he thinks maybe she’s just come back to say a proper goodbye before carrying on with her life? Yes, he presumably saw she had her bag and guitar, which the children carried in, but it could easily be because she has returned to mostly just say goodbye to the kids, and then be off again into the world. I think with her return at all, it’s subtly apparent to everyone she isn’t headed for a life in the habit anymore, so maybe he fears she’s going to skip through his fingers because she’s just there for a day or so? Yes. That's what I think too. He's already lost her once. He can't let that happen again, but he doesn't know if he has minutes or months to figure it out.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 28, 2023 0:20:48 GMT
He just didn't want her to disappear from his life as quickly as she had before (back to the Abbey). It must have stung him badly then, so when she turned up completely unexpectedly, all he could think of was to get her to stay whilst he recalibrated their relationship. Personally I think he decided during dinner that he should ease out Elsa, because he is a different man on the balcony, wandering out on his own and then clearly transfixed by the sight of the governess. The only other option I can think of is whether he felt he had to gauge Maria's feeling for him first, before dumping Elsa. That would be harsh on Elsa, but from Georg's POV, what would he do if Maria rebuffed him or simply said she wanted to continue to be a nun? What I am asking is, if Maria had declined him, would he have gone on to marry Elsa anyway? The romantic story I have in my head about this is that he would not have married Elsa anyway. He is in love with Maria, and being a man of experience, he knows the difference between a relationship built on love and a relationship built on convenience. He wants love or nothing at all. Maria's return means that she is not locked behind the abbey walls, and he therefore needs to at least tell her how he feels, even if she rejects him, but I don't think he'd do that with Elsa still on the line. That's too manipulative for him. He knew deep down that his marriage to Elsa wasn't going to work anyway. He just needed the right moment to privately break up. Then he needed to find the right words to tell Maria he loves her without scaring her away. We often talk about what a big day this was for Maria. It was a pretty big day for Georg too...
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Post by utility_singer on Jul 29, 2023 11:25:58 GMT
Honestly, I think he began thinking of how to break it off when he told the children. The realization that it wasn't going to work is visible in his eyes, before he runs them off after Kurt's odd attempt to kiss/sniff her.
There is so much deliciousness in the rest of this discussion, I'll have to read through and digest before I comment. But this stood out.
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 29, 2023 22:07:14 GMT
So do you mean that as soon as he said it, he knew it was wrong?
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Post by utility_singer on Jul 30, 2023 11:03:41 GMT
So do you mean that as soon as he said it, he knew it was wrong? Yes, and perhaps even before. He had to be prompted (almost pushed) to tell them at all. I think there was a conversation between Georg and Elsa in which she said all the right things about the children needing a mother, etc. until, in his new round of grief over Maria's departure, finally agreed to marry. I even doubt that it was an actual proposal, and more of a business deal (which in the stage version is pretty much implied). This promise of being a 'mother' is why she was trying to play with them. His 'and we'll all be very happy' is as much to convince himself as the children.
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 1, 2023 22:06:03 GMT
So do you mean that as soon as he said it, he knew it was wrong? Yes, and perhaps even before. He had to be prompted (almost pushed) to tell them at all. I think there was a conversation between Georg and Elsa in which she said all the right things about the children needing a mother, etc. until, in his new round of grief over Maria's departure, finally agreed to marry. I even doubt that it was an actual proposal, and more of a business deal (which in the stage version is pretty much implied). This promise of being a 'mother' is why she was trying to play with them. His 'and we'll all be very happy' is as much to convince himself as the children. utility_singer I think this is so totally accurate - he had misgivings even before Maria returned. Which explains why he looks so sick when Maria congratulates them and Elsa thanks her. Also, notice that when Elsa prattles on in the balcony scene - the honeymoon, gifts, etc - before she abruptly switches gears and says she’s been thinking all along it wouldn’t work out, Georg never for an instant plays along with the wedding scenario. I would give anything to be in his head in those moments on the balcony before Elsa joins him (even though I wrote a story about it, that’s the best I will ever be able to d0>
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