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Post by reverendcaptain on Aug 2, 2023 15:18:18 GMT
So do you mean that as soon as he said it, he knew it was wrong? Yes, and perhaps even before. He had to be prompted (almost pushed) to tell them at all. I think there was a conversation between Georg and Elsa in which she said all the right things about the children needing a mother, etc. until, in his new round of grief over Maria's departure, finally agreed to marry. I even doubt that it was an actual proposal, and more of a business deal (which in the stage version is pretty much implied). This promise of being a 'mother' is why she was trying to play with them. His 'and we'll all be very happy' is as much to convince himself as the children. I love this. I think Georg knew he was in love with Maria during the Laendler. It always kind of rubbed me the wrong way that he proposed to Elsa. Though, he made many irrational decisions when Agathe died, so him making irrational decisions after losing Maria is not that far of a stretch, especially if they were plans that were already in the works before Maria was even part of his life. I agree that Elsa said all the right things, and he thought it was the best scenario, even though he was heartbroken. If he had already decided to break up with Elsa before Maria had returned, how do you think the break up would have happened if Maria hadn't returned? What would have been the catalyst to make him officially end it?
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Post by utility_singer on Aug 3, 2023 10:35:49 GMT
I think it would likely have been a combination of things. Obviously, the children's feelings would be one, though I don't know that he would directly say that. It might be something like his refusal to send them off to boarding school, and then saying it just wouldn't work because they don't share the same family values.
Politics would have been another reason. In the stage version they break up because Elsa is more clearly interested in maintaining her business interests by going along with the Nazi regime. That would have been abhorrent to Georg. Her involvement was different than Max's 'go along to get along' hope of flying under the radar to avoid personal harm.
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Post by helenaserdaigle on Aug 6, 2023 20:21:26 GMT
That's an interesting point about politics! It's not so explicit in the movie, of course, but I always thought political differences were an obvious potential source of tensions between Georg and Elsa.
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 7, 2023 23:22:38 GMT
I can't help feeling that Elsa's life is so rooted in Vienna that she would want to spend much of her life there - she would still have her house and friends there. Georg has already said how he didn't like the parties etc, so that could become a bone of contention, because it would be difficult to transport the kids back and forth all the time. Liesl might like the city life, but I can't imagine the other kids going for it.
Do you think the kids might have played a trick on Elsa to make her go away in the way they played them on the governesses?!
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 8, 2023 20:30:59 GMT
I can't help feeling that Elsa's life is so rooted in Vienna that she would want to spend much of her life there - she would still have her house and friends there. Georg has already said how he didn't like the parties etc, so that could become a bone of contention, because it would be difficult to transport the kids back and forth all the time. Liesl might like the city life, but I can't imagine the other kids going for it. Do you think the kids might have played a trick on Elsa to make her go away in the way they played them on the governesses?! I would like to think that, influenced by Maria and wanting their father to be happy, they might rise above their baser instincts but nah .....
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Post by reverendcaptain on Aug 15, 2023 20:59:10 GMT
I can't help feeling that Elsa's life is so rooted in Vienna that she would want to spend much of her life there - she would still have her house and friends there. Georg has already said how he didn't like the parties etc, so that could become a bone of contention, because it would be difficult to transport the kids back and forth all the time. Liesl might like the city life, but I can't imagine the other kids going for it. I agree that Elsa would want to spend most of her time in Vienna. Though, I'm sure she wouldn't want the kids there all the time. I guess that is when the boarding school topic would be brought up. I would think that where they would spend their time, where the children would be enrolled in school, and how often they would be away from the the children would be topics they would have discussed before getting engaged. Though, maybe all concerns were swept away with "oh, we'll figure that all out later. I'm sure we can come to an agreement that suits everyone." kind of thing. And Georg, being distraught over the loss of Maria, just shook his head and agreed (while downing a whiskey).
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 10, 2024 1:55:12 GMT
Maria returns from the Abbey. He asks her why she ran away and she says, "Please don't ask me. Anyway, the reason no longer exists." Well, one, that's an oddly belt-and-suspenders answer, wouldn't either response do? And I always thought excuse that sounded SO ridiculously transparent, like what other reason would that be besides a broken heart? "I thought the Abbey's softball team was going to make the playoffs, but they blew it?" "I went back for Sister Berthe's birthday party, but they rescheduled it for the fall?" Or maybe I'm wrong, maybe it is a really believable excuse . What do you think? Does Georg see through it? “I thought the abbey’s softball team was going to make the playoffs, but they blew it.” Bwahahahaha! I know this quote is from over a decade ago, but I was looking for something in this thread today and this line just cracked me up. Is there any answer Maria could have given here that would have been better than what she said?
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 11, 2024 15:08:21 GMT
His question is so direct and out of the blue that she doesn't have any time to consider a better answer; I tried to think of what I would say if I were her (knowing the situation would arise), but there isn't a lot she could say - as it is, what she says works well to avoid the subject.
I began to think what he could have said to be a little kinder and to encourage her more, and which might have had a better effect:
"We really missed you being here"? "The kids felt their choir had lost their most important member..." "The abbey must have had an important need for you, but we also need you here..." "I was sad when you left and hope you will stay longer this time?"
Accepted that much of the drama of the film is created by his character being so unapproachable, but he doesn't make it easy for her!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 14, 2024 20:17:20 GMT
Good point! He could have (and should have) been much less accusatory here, especially seeing that he wanted her to stay. I like all of your suggestions. I'll throw one out too. How about "We're so glad you returned. We've missed you. How are you?" By saying "we" he can make it seem like he and the children are together in their missing her and happiness to see her, which they are, but it allows him to avoid any hint that he is talking about the relationship he alone has with Maria. Plus, I think a simple "how are you?" allows her to say as much or as little about her departure and return as she wants to. I think he was so hurt that he couldn't help himself but to bluntly ask why she left them so abruptly. I wonder if he regretted that line of questioning later (while he was quiet over dinner).
Any thoughts on what else he was pondering over dinner? It could be any number of things.
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Post by indigoblue on Feb 17, 2024 0:47:14 GMT
I'm sure he was deep in thought about how he could persuade Maria to stay, but I also think her return has brought into focus the gulf which is increasingly apparent between him and Elsa.
I was reading an article the other day which talked about quite how pre-eminent Vienna had become since the First World War (ie 1920s onwards), in terms of its vibrant and diverse culture of the arts, music, literature, psychoanalysis etc, which was encouraged by government subsidy, making it widely available. This encouraged writers, musicians, artists etc and the building of many concert halls, festivals etc, with a correspondingly sophisticated population (for those who could afford to indulge in it).
I suppose I am thinking of Georg embedded and isolated in Salzburg, which although it has a culture of its own, will not be close to swinging Vienna; there must have been a big culture clash therefore between the two - Georg the Country Boy with Elsa the doyenne of Viennese social life. I know this has been touched on before, when he says he doesn't like Vienna parties, but I don't think we have really talked about different their interests; I also think of him as a submarine commander, which must have been pretty gritty a lot of the time - how much does she understand of that?
Perhaps this is on his mind at dinner, when she is trying to fill the gap left by his silence?
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 22, 2024 18:39:04 GMT
Wow, Georg had a lot on his mind at dinner. Problems with Elsa, Salzburg vs. Vienna, Maria’s surprise return. I also wanted to say something about his blurting out “you left without saying goodbye … why did you?” In that fashion, is that no, it wasn’t the most strategic way to open a conversation, but maybe Georg is not as in control of his emotions at this moment as he appears (he looks like he’s positively ironed into his suit out there on the steps but we know he’s in turmoil). So he really does just say what comes to mind.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 22, 2024 19:54:26 GMT
I'm sure he was deep in thought about how he could persuade Maria to stay, but I also think her return has brought into focus the gulf which is increasingly apparent between him and Elsa. I was reading an article the other day which talked about quite how pre-eminent Vienna had become since the First World War (ie 1920s onwards), in terms of its vibrant and diverse culture of the arts, music, literature, psychoanalysis etc, which was encouraged by government subsidy, making it widely available. This encouraged writers, musicians, artists etc and the building of many concert halls, festivals etc, with a correspondingly sophisticated population (for those who could afford to indulge in it). I suppose I am thinking of Georg embedded and isolated in Salzburg, which although it has a culture of its own, will not be close to swinging Vienna; there must have been a big culture clash therefore between the two - Georg the Country Boy with Elsa the doyenne of Viennese social life. I know this has been touched on before, when he says he doesn't like Vienna parties, but I don't think we have really talked about different their interests; I also think of him as a submarine commander, which must have been pretty gritty a lot of the time - how much does she understand of that? Perhaps this is on his mind at dinner, when she is trying to fill the gap left by his silence? If he is contemplating how he prefers the simple life in Salzburg to the glitzy life in Vienna, then Elsa has really selected the wrong outfit for dinner! I imagine him being somewhat flustered by his own lack of clarity. He could command troops without hesitation with enemy ships approaching, but being in love makes everything fuzzy. He can't figure out the moves he needs to make to get to where he wants to be. He knows Elsa is charming, but he knows they aren't supposed to be together. They want different lifestyles and have politics. But, he feels terrible about breaking up with her, even though he knows it's best for both of them. Then, there's the shock of Maria's return. He never envisioned being in this position. How does he get her to stay? He has to at least suspect that she came back because she has feelings for him. How does he figure this out without making a fool of himself? What a mess! And he knows he needs to act soon or she'll be gone again. I'd be downing the wine too..
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 22, 2024 20:03:48 GMT
Wow, Georg had a lot on his mind at dinner. Problems with Elsa, Salzburg vs. Vienna, Maria’s surprise return. I also wanted to say something about his blurting out “you left without saying goodbye … why did you?” In that fashion, is that no, it wasn’t the most strategic way to open a conversation, but maybe Georg is not as in control of his emotions at this moment as he appears (he looks like he’s positively ironed into his suit out there on the steps but we know he’s in turmoil). So he really does just say what comes to mind. I think Georg is always in internal turmoil when Maria is around. He looks impeccable, but is off balance when he is at odds with her in the beginning and when he is smitten with her in the middle. This is new because he isn't acting as the commander of his household or as the school boy with a crush. This is man whose heart has been wounded, and you're right, he forgets himself and goes straight for the burning question without thinking it through.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 22, 2024 20:06:11 GMT
Wow, Georg had a lot on his mind at dinner. Problems with Elsa, Salzburg vs. Vienna, Maria’s surprise return. I also wanted to say something about his blurting out “you left without saying goodbye … why did you?” In that fashion, is that no, it wasn’t the most strategic way to open a conversation, but maybe Georg is not as in control of his emotions at this moment as he appears (he looks like he’s positively ironed into his suit out there on the steps but we know he’s in turmoil). So he really does just say what comes to mind. I think Georg is always in internal turmoil when Maria is around. He looks impeccable, but is off balance when he is at odds with her in the beginning and when he is smitten with her in the middle. This is new because he isn't acting as the commander of his household or as the school boy with a crush. This is man whose heart has been wounded, and you're right, he forgets himself and goes straight for the burning question without thinking it through. Ha ha this makes me think that he could actually perform a reprise of “a problem like Maria.“. “When I’m with her I’m confused out of focus and bemused, and I never know exactly where I am.“
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 22, 2024 20:51:58 GMT
I think Georg is always in internal turmoil when Maria is around. He looks impeccable, but is off balance when he is at odds with her in the beginning and when he is smitten with her in the middle. This is new because he isn't acting as the commander of his household or as the school boy with a crush. This is man whose heart has been wounded, and you're right, he forgets himself and goes straight for the burning question without thinking it through. Ha ha this makes me think that he could actually perform a reprise of “a problem like Maria.“. “When I’m with her I’m confused out of focus and bemused, and I never know exactly where I am.“ Yes, he could have! Though, he doesn't seem confused anymore after the kiss, so I guess he found the solution to the problem.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 22, 2024 20:53:39 GMT
Ha ha this makes me think that he could actually perform a reprise of “a problem like Maria.“. “When I’m with her I’m confused out of focus and bemused, and I never know exactly where I am.“ Yes, he could have! Though, he doesn't seem confused anymore after the kiss, so I guess he found the solution to the problem. … while the nuns are STILL complaining about her when she’s marching up the aisle!!!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 6, 2024 1:42:44 GMT
I think Georg is always in internal turmoil when Maria is around. He looks impeccable, but is off balance when he is at odds with her in the beginning and when he is smitten with her in the middle. This is new because he isn't acting as the commander of his household or as the school boy with a crush. This is man whose heart has been wounded, and you're right, he forgets himself and goes straight for the burning question without thinking it through. Ha ha this makes me think that he could actually perform a reprise of “a problem like Maria.“. “When I’m with her I’m confused out of focus and bemused, and I never know exactly where I am.“ I was just re-watching Maria's return, and it struck me this time that it's obvious Georg is more than a little bit hurt - just by word choice - although his demeanour doesn't change.
"You left without saying goodbye...even to the children"...like the children were secondary to the whole thing. You didn't say goodbye to ME? You can tell he's emotionally off-balance, that he missed her terribly, but he's so calm. Then he transfers vulnerability to Maria with his: "why did you?" - and Maria's hasty answer, asking him not to ask her....
SWOON...
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 7, 2024 0:37:52 GMT
Also he knows he might only have a few minutes with her alone, his only opportunity to both find out how she feels and to persuade her not to leave - just yet!
Maybe he is feeling desperate that she may slip away forever this time, and so he has to pin her down as fast as possible, before Elsa sees them talking together.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 11, 2024 19:28:05 GMT
This may be especially true if he has pieced it together that Elsa's disappearance during the party had something to do with Maria's departure. He has to know he only has moments until Elsa is out there and that she will likely try to never let them be alone together again.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 13, 2024 0:44:12 GMT
"Please don't ask me..." is a response which makes her very vulnerable, a bit like "You have helped...more than you will ever know" in The Apology. Both responses, rather than being accusatory like in The Argument, half open a door because they induce a desire to see inside, and to ask what that person means by the comment. Intriguing!
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Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 13, 2024 23:56:08 GMT
"Please don't ask me..." is a response which makes her very vulnerable, a bit like "You have helped...more than you will ever know" in The Apology. Both responses, rather than being accusatory like in The Argument, half open a door because they induce a desire to see inside, and to ask what that person means by the comment. Intriguing! ooooh another door metaphor! How I love this...plus Maria's fall-back of "somewhere He opens a window"....
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 14, 2024 23:25:37 GMT
"Please don't ask me..." is a response which makes her very vulnerable, a bit like "You have helped...more than you will ever know" in The Apology. Both responses, rather than being accusatory like in The Argument, half open a door because they induce a desire to see inside, and to ask what that person means by the comment. Intriguing! ooooh another door metaphor! How I love this...plus Maria's fall-back of "somewhere He opens a window".... More doors! I really love this whole discussion. “The reason no longer exists” is SO vulnerable because really what else could the reason be. I like the idea that on the inside, he is in a rush, aware that he has to get somewhere with her before Elsa intrudes, while on the outside, he starts out so utterly still when he greets her, with that mocking little smile, as though he doesn’t have a care in the world. Then the whole tempo and tone of his manner changes to match the turmoil inside.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 23, 2024 0:45:24 GMT
Yes, "The reason no longer exists" begs the question "What is that reason?" "Please don't ask me" reads as "Please DO ask me" "You have helped... more than you will ever know" begs the question "How?"!
But I nipped away to check out the scene where Maria returns and is talking to Georg on the terrace, and got the feeling that he is quite composed (even if perhaps a little excited inside) at her return. It is only at her response "Please don't ask me...anyway, the reason no longer exists..." that he becomes rattled, and stares at her intently, as though he can't believe his ears. I think he understands completely what she is inferring, and this is confirmation to him that she is in love with him (which he wasn't sure about before).
Then after that Elsa bustles in and poor old Georg looks increasingly sick, especially when Maria congratulates them on their engagement. Getting ever more unsettled as he realises she is the girl of his dreams, he knows he must hang on to her before she disappears again...and all in front of Elsa, hence "You are here to stay?", with Maria's great put down!
Poor old Georg: submarine life never prepared him for this...
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 25, 2024 23:48:29 GMT
That is so smart, indigoblue! I think your explanation makes the most sense.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 27, 2024 23:44:04 GMT
Yes, "The reason no longer exists" begs the question "What is that reason?" "Please don't ask me" reads as "Please DO ask me" "You have helped... more than you will ever know" begs the question "How?"! But I nipped away to check out the scene where Maria returns and is talking to Georg on the terrace, and got the feeling that he is quite composed (even if perhaps a little excited inside) at her return. It is only at her response "Please don't ask me...anyway, the reason no longer exists..." that he becomes rattled, and stares at her intently, as though he can't believe his ears. I think he understands completely what she is inferring, and this is confirmation to him that she is in love with him (which he wasn't sure about before). Then after that Elsa bustles in and poor old Georg looks increasingly sick, especially when Maria congratulates them on their engagement. Getting ever more unsettled as he realises she is the girl of his dreams, he knows he must hang on to her before she disappears again...and all in front of Elsa, hence "You are here to stay?", with Maria's great put down! Poor old Georg: submarine life never prepared him for this... Oh how I loved this line: "submarine life never prepared him for this..." hahaha
I have a question/comment/query that is related to this moment in the movie BUT happens a little later. I am thinking of when Maria comes out of the house after dark just before Georg comes out on the balcony. Have you ever noticed how she pauses just before the stairs and looks to the left, which is where Georg had been standing earlier when he asked if she was going to stay? What do you think she has going on in her head at that moment. Is she thinking about how handsome he was? how Elsa was right about men/him? about how everything she knew about the man and their friendship was a sham? Is she angry? Melancholy? A bit of both.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 28, 2024 0:43:11 GMT
Golly, I had always been puzzled by why she gazed so deliberately to the left...now I know!
Will have to scamper away, considering what she was thinking then...
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 18, 2024 19:56:24 GMT
Yes, "The reason no longer exists" begs the question "What is that reason?" "Please don't ask me" reads as "Please DO ask me" "You have helped... more than you will ever know" begs the question "How?"! But I nipped away to check out the scene where Maria returns and is talking to Georg on the terrace, and got the feeling that he is quite composed (even if perhaps a little excited inside) at her return. It is only at her response "Please don't ask me...anyway, the reason no longer exists..." that he becomes rattled, and stares at her intently, as though he can't believe his ears. I think he understands completely what she is inferring, and this is confirmation to him that she is in love with him (which he wasn't sure about before). Then after that Elsa bustles in and poor old Georg looks increasingly sick, especially when Maria congratulates them on their engagement. Getting ever more unsettled as he realises she is the girl of his dreams, he knows he must hang on to her before she disappears again...and all in front of Elsa, hence "You are here to stay?", with Maria's great put down! Poor old Georg: submarine life never prepared him for this... Oh how I loved this line: "submarine life never prepared him for this..." hahaha
I have a question/comment/query that is related to this moment in the movie BUT happens a little later. I am thinking of when Maria comes out of the house after dark just before Georg comes out on the balcony. Have you ever noticed how she pauses just before the stairs and looks to the left, which is where Georg had been standing earlier when he asked if she was going to stay? What do you think she has going on in her head at that moment. Is she thinking about how handsome he was? how Elsa was right about men/him? about how everything she knew about the man and their friendship was a sham? Is she angry? Melancholy? A bit of both.
Great questions! Is she picturing him when she first laid eyes on him after her return? Or picturing him in the last second before she turned and ran inside? As for her thoughts, I always lean towards her thinking that he looks handsome. I don't think she believed he would use her as Elsa suggested ("He'll get over it soon enough I should think. Men do, you know"). He treated her with too much respect to just be using her for a fling. Though, clearly he didn't love her or he wouldn't be engaged to someone else. She has to consider that he is so far out of her league that it was ridiculous for her to think they could have been together at all. Maybe she is thinking "I was so foolish to come back here. I'm so in love with him, but he was never going to feel that way about me. He was standing right here looking handsome as ever while I had to fumble through congratulating him and his bride to be. At least I didn't cry. But why did I put myself and the children through the ordeal of coming back and leaving again?"
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 20, 2024 23:50:20 GMT
All of the above. In a nutshell, I think she is totally confused, and is reenacting that moment when he asks "You are here to stay?", as this must be the most puzzling question of all for her.
-Is he asking her this because he is in a flap about childcare after he gets married because he and Elsa will be so busy? -Or is it because he is in a tizzy about her leaving before he can declare his love to her? -Maybe she is wondering whether her response, "Only until another governess arrives" was too much of a put-down for him, and she should have left him more encouragement?
Either way, I'm sure this is why she went to the gazebo to contemplate her future. Maybe she saw Elsa give Georg a kiss on the cheek on the balcony, and decided she had lost out entirely?
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Post by augiesannie on May 2, 2024 19:42:12 GMT
I have written that into a few stories - the idea that Maria is sitting there on her bench, thinking all the things y'all have said so well, and she looks up to see Georg chuckling at Elsa's remark, Elsa putting a proprietary hand on his arm and then kissing his cheek. Of course we don't know what Georg looked like or did after Elsa departed, but maybe Maria was looking down by then. Or maybe he is hard to read. It just lays the groundwork for her state of mind when he arrives at the gazebo.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 18, 2024 16:48:43 GMT
Do you think at least a little bit of her heartbreak in this scene is knowing that she'll have to leave the children? I know she came back because she needed to find out if Georg was in love with her the same way she was in love with him, but she and the children had such a joyous reunion, and one of the only direct things she could get out during the gazebo scene was that she missed the children. I just wonder how much of a factor this was. She wanted to be with Georg, but that meant she was going to instantly be a mother of 7. The heartbreak of losing both Georg and the children at once (while smiling at Elsa) had to be more than she could take.
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