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Post by augiesannie on May 20, 2015 0:56:37 GMT
I can't find the poll I originally ran about whether we think E&G were intimate (while in Vienna). But the question resurfaced on Facebook because of a picture of E&G that I can't post from this computer. I know I'm in the minority, but having written it both ways, I'm going to say that I think they were. Maybe not very often. And I agree, not at the villa. But this is a guy we think was a reformed rake and fabulous lover, and she is sophisticated and has a voice like silver coins. And it's the 1930s, not the 1830s. And as someone pointed out somewhere, he is kinda flirtatious with her. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Now it's your turn.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 20, 2015 1:17:40 GMT
No, I don't think so. Yeah it's the 1930s, but it was pretty much a no no before marriage back then (and yes, I know that it did happen). I just don't understand the need for a chaperone if they were already engaged with the activity. They wouldn't want society to know it and it seems like they would want to maintain a healthy reputation in society. I also don't really believe he loves her as much as she does him and for that reason would put her off even if she hinted at it. Flirtatious yes, but still not quite completely comfortable with her (as is evident by his weird little chuckle during their lakeside stroll) and perhaps he might even feel like he was cheating on his dead wife he were to do so. He does still wear his wedding ring afterall. It would take someone very special to break him away from that feeling of guilt, ie Maria.
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Post by utility_singer on May 20, 2015 1:52:50 GMT
I agree, and the wedding band is the tell-tale sign. He hasn't been ready to move on, and he is distinctly uncomfortable in that lakeside exchange when she is hinting around; "what would you call me?", "searching just like you", etc. If he was a rake, he is a reformed one who doesn't seem as if he would settle for anything less than what he shared with Agathe.
But, that's just me.
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Post by augiesannie on May 20, 2015 1:54:50 GMT
I just like drawing out the discussion! I really can see all of your arguments as meritorious (except the chaperone part that CLEARLY is just for show IMHO) . And I also think that for some men - I won't be bigoted and say all -- needing to have sex could be different from letting go of an old love and finding a new one.
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Post by utility_singer on May 20, 2015 2:02:07 GMT
That's quite true, but depression usually kills the libido. And even if the physical need/desire was there, that could cause, shall we say, performance issues. Perhaps he was content to just avoid the entire issue. Until Maria woke him up, in more ways than one.
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Post by cass on May 20, 2015 2:03:07 GMT
My opinion flip flops. I have no hard-and-fast ruling on it. I think it depends chiefly on the story I'm writing at the time, and if that information is relevant at all.
The way they behave suggests they're lovers, or were once, but one does not dictate the other, and vice versa. It may just be that they're comfortable with one another. They certainly share in a lot of things.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 20, 2015 2:04:24 GMT
I just like drawing out the discussion! I really can see all of your arguments as meritorious (except the chaperone part that CLEARLY is just for show IMHO) . And I also think that for some men - I won't be bigoted and say all -- needing to have sex could be different from letting go of an old love and finding a new one. I can see the point with the chaperone part, but I just don't see him as being the kind of man to do it just because he feels like having sex. I think he needs the connection in order to do it because he is fully aware of what it means and the implications of it. I don't see him behaving that way.
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Post by thebeestings on May 20, 2015 2:48:16 GMT
Fantastic discussion. I agree with everyone, lol. augiesannie said: I do see your point here. Sometimes it's just a physical thing. Maybe it started that way and they grew to be friends? Yes, he is made uncomfortable by the lakeside chat but I think the conversation they are having is what's too intimate for him. That she is pushing and hinting toward a more permanent arrangement between the two of them is making him squirm. He isn't uncomfortable touching her or teasing her or having her in his personal space. And I know that doesn't equate to them being lovers but I wouldn't rule it out. Dude does have seven children after all...was he really celibate all those years? I don't know but it's fun to guess!
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Post by patrickssong on May 20, 2015 8:56:33 GMT
I'm in the 'no they weren't lovers' camp. I think after Agathe, Georg wouldn't become intimate with a woman unless he connected with her on a far deeper level. Body and soul. Yeah he was a rake as a youth and a terrific lover, but he is older now and I'm just not seeing it. They have fun together, they tease and flirt, but I don't think they have reached they point where they were between the sheets.
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Post by utility_singer on May 20, 2015 10:33:44 GMT
I just like drawing out the discussion! I really can see all of your arguments as meritorious (except the chaperone part that CLEARLY is just for show IMHO) . And I also think that for some men - I won't be bigoted and say all -- needing to have sex could be different from letting go of an old love and finding a new one. I can see the point with the chaperone part, but I just don't see him as being the kind of man to do it just because he feels like having sex. I think he needs the connection in order to do it because he is fully aware of what it means and the implications of it. I don't see him behaving that way. That is another thing I wanted to say, but didn't feel I was expressing it properly so I didn't. This is exactly what I thought.
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Post by augiesannie on May 20, 2015 13:38:32 GMT
The photo reminded me of that point about their being comfortable in each other's physical space and that's what got me thinking. I've written a couple of times recently about how G, under pressure, has an ill advised liaison. I do realize that CP isn't Georg, but it reminds me of this thing CP says in his memoir: that as a young man when under pressure to decide something, he had to, pardon me, get some. Now G is a little older and maybe a better person than CP. But people do sometimes act out.
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Post by utility_singer on May 20, 2015 14:06:31 GMT
Oh, indeed. But seeing as G has become such a man of principle, I can almost imagine him, er, "borrowing" someone else's mistress for a no-ties romp, rather than the woman he's considering marrying, which could entangle him more than he's intending.
Chris as a younger man, by his own admission, was quite UN-principled.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 20, 2015 16:52:45 GMT
The photo reminded me of that point about their being comfortable in each other's physical space and that's what got me thinking. I've written a couple of times recently about how G, under pressure, has an ill advised liaison. I do realize that CP isn't Georg, but it reminds me of this thing CP says in his memoir: that as a young man when under pressure to decide something, he had to, pardon me, get some. Now G is a little older and maybe a better person than CP. But people do sometimes act out. Yes, I think Georg is a much more disciplined man than CP was. I think he also strikes me as being much more able to control himself. He has a reputation to uphold and much more complicated of a man. I think he is much more a man of principles.
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Post by cass on May 20, 2015 17:37:45 GMT
Don't mind me, I'm just sitting here nomming on my proverbial popcorn and enjoying this discussion way too much.
In my opinion, Georg becomes much more concerned with reputation and status once he's not the only one in the picture anymore. So, basically, Agathe whips him into shape. And I also believe that progressing up the ranks and earning a hero's name for himself in battle plays a great deal into that. In real life, Georg von Trapp only ever reached corvette captain, one rank below his father (which was about halfway through the Austro-Hungarian ranks), but the movie definitely provides generous leeway with the decision to simply make him captain, rather than try to deal with the complicated specifics. (Fun fact: the German dubs for TSOM actually deliberately refer to him as Korvettenkapitän even though the written dialogue calls for Kapitän. It makes me laugh so much. So stubborn.).
Though, I should add that I feel that Agathe didn't expressly set out with the intention of reforming him. I think he has the capacity to do that on his own, and that he does (which is reflected in the fact that he's a highly-principled person. A pain in the butt about it, yes, but principled, and staunchly so). I'm not much for stories where you've got a rake and an innocent virgin helming the plot, but when it's not a coercive attempt at "fixing" said rake and is largely self-imposed, I'm game. I find it fascinating to read and play with elements that provoke people to behave in certain ways.
That said, I think there's a line to be drawn between his somewhat freewheeling past and what marriage and love transformed him into, but that line is not necessarily a given when grief has obliterated your ability to feel and live. I concur on the points about depression, libido, and performance, but I've seen far worse off people do some truly stupid things, especially sexually, in an attempt to just be able to feel something again, so I don't rule out the possibility that he has at least contemplated a no-strings affair or two, especially being surrounded by Viennese high society and far removed from home. Most days, I believe he kept to himself, but the argument can easily be made to the contrary. I like to keep it open.
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Post by augiesannie on May 26, 2015 18:42:31 GMT
that was really well said cass. I do believe that any transformation would have stemmed from his own principles and thought process - he's not one to be pushed around. And I just think there is room, as you say, for a scenario where a combination of circumstances could have led to an indiscretion. Especially for the "trying to feel something again" reason.
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Post by indigoblue on May 26, 2015 23:09:10 GMT
Maybe they did it once but it felt all wrong to him (maybe this is why he is squirming)- he has to deal with both the memory of it (when it should have been so right), and also the negative implications for his future relationship with Elsa.
So in the garden by the lake we see her flirting with him, trying to entice him into a corner with her, when all he can think of is how it felt so wrong. This explains why he appears to be flirtacious, but there is also a 'deadness' in him because he won't be 'drawn' to her. And this also explains to me why we can't decide whether they have or they haven't Done It, because usually if a couple have Done It and enjoyed it, they move and talk together in tandem in a characteristic and flirtacious way, but these two are not like that.
..the best way I can describe it is in a 3-legged race when 2 people have one of their legs tied to the other person; when people are 'together' they travel smoothly and at one with each other. In contrast, when they are not running in a co-ordinated way, they knock up against each other and strain against each other, and travel less fast and in a jerky way - well G & E in the garden seem to me like this latter situation.
So my money is on them having had one unsuccessful rendezvous, and they are now quietly having to deal with the tricky implications of that...but what's worse, being 1930, you can't talk about sex...
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 27, 2015 4:13:59 GMT
That's an interesting take on it Indigoblue.
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Post by cass on May 28, 2015 2:59:23 GMT
Maybe they did it once but it felt all wrong to him (maybe this is why he is squirming)- he has to deal with both the memory of it (when it should have been so right), and also the negative implications for his future relationship with Elsa.
So in the garden by the lake we see her flirting with him, trying to entice him into a corner with her, when all he can think of is how it felt so wrong. This explains why he appears to be flirtacious, but there is also a 'deadness' in him because he won't be 'drawn' to her. And this also explains to me why we can't decide whether they have or they haven't Done It, because usually if a couple have Done It and enjoyed it, they move and talk together in tandem in a characteristic and flirtacious way, but these two are not like that.
..the best way I can describe it is in a 3-legged race when 2 people have one of their legs tied to the other person; when people are 'together' they travel smoothly and at one with each other. In contrast, when they are not running in a co-ordinated way, they knock up against each other and strain against each other, and travel less fast and in a jerky way - well G & E in the garden seem to me like this latter situation.
So my money is on them having had one unsuccessful rendezvous, and they are now quietly having to deal with the tricky implications of that...but what's worse, being 1930, you can't talk about sex... If I ever cared enough to write any kind of serious G&E story, this is exactly what the scenario would most closely resemble. It acknowledges both sides of the dilemma and adds some serious dimension in terms of explaining how they are with each other. Dare I say it... she sometimes comes off as really clingy to me, and more than once over the course of her time in the film I get the sense from the look on her face and her eyes that she's trying desperately not to cry. And though he's close, he's got this wall up that he won't let her through. Which... can be and is frustratingly hurtful. And so she carries on with her front of grace, poise, and extravagance. I find it to be intriguingly consistent from start to finish, from the chat during their walk through the gardens to the talk with Max and to her breaking things off with Georg. Truthfully part of me thinks she followed Maria up that staircase in an effort to figure out just what it was about the pretty but uncultured governess hailing from the mountains that broke down Georg's guard so completely in just the span of one incomplete dance. Maria did in minutes what Elsa couldn't accomplish in years.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 28, 2015 5:50:58 GMT
Maria did in minutes what Elsa couldn't accomplish in years.
Yes, but it was a process. She started breaking him down long before that dance ever started. Really she started from the moment she was snooping around the ballroom. Coincidence that the room that he says should not be disturbed is the very room that he opens up first for a puppet show and then second a party where he more than likely discovers his love for Maria? I think not, again perhaps some clever scripting and directing. First to an imaginary dancer, second time the real deal. A little foreshadowing maybe?
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Post by utility_singer on May 28, 2015 11:01:17 GMT
Not only that----I know it's been mentioned before about how he comes out of the 'society' ballroom to find what he truly loves out on the terrace (Maria in what echoes a traditional Austrian dress, his children, etc). But he truly comes *through* it, from greeting the guests in the hall with Elsa and presumably leaving her there, going through the ballroom (which sort of represents his loss) to find his new love/life.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 28, 2015 15:35:07 GMT
I love all of this insight and wonder if some of this went through the Robert Wise's head when he was directing the movie.
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Post by cass on May 29, 2015 1:20:35 GMT
Maria did in minutes what Elsa couldn't accomplish in years.
Yes, but it was a process. She started breaking him down long before that dance ever started. Really she started from the moment she was snooping around the ballroom. Coincidence that the room that he says should not be disturbed is the very room that he opens up first for a puppet show and then second a party where he more than likely discovers his love for Maria? I think not, again perhaps some clever scripting and directing. First to an imaginary dancer, second time the real deal. A little foreshadowing maybe? Oh, I agree. But Elsa doesn't know exactly where it started and just how long it had been going on. She saw hints in the interactions she witnessed once arriving at the villa, but when you're thinking solely in the scheme of Elsa and the implications as they apply to her, the Ländler is a very singular, very concrete moment where everything came tumbling down for him, where before that it was all otherwise harmless flirtation, of which Maria does not even know she's partaking. So before the dance, it's all pretty innocuous, if irritating and annoying, and not outwardly indicative of much change other than that he's making eyes at the governess. Standard infatuation, really. During and after, however... it's a whole different game. He's completely besotted, totally in love, and that dance unleashed so much vulnerability that under any normal circumstances, would be a slow, drawn out process. So, I stand by what I said. In terms of perspective singularity, this is THE moment where everything in him cracks for his audience to see. And yeah, I fully believe Bob Wise thought of most, if not all, of these things. The few things I've seen where he has given his thoughtful commentary... wow. Mindblowing. He's a master. The way he talks about his work makes me want to watch his films in various genres that I normally have zero interest in seeing. The sheer depth he'll go to in order to see a scene to its full potential is unsurpassed, even if that means that the audience at large won't get it and it's not superficially "worth" the effort. To him, it is worthwhile, and so he'll follow through.
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Post by utility_singer on May 29, 2015 1:50:25 GMT
This. I agree with every word. I've said before, that his experience as an award-winning editor gave him a valuable perspective and ability to know what he wanted and make sure it got on film so that his own editor had what he needed to tell the story Wise wanted to tell. If that makes sense.
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Post by augiesannie on May 30, 2015 0:12:01 GMT
Maybe they did it once but it felt all wrong to him (maybe this is why he is squirming)- he has to deal with both the memory of it (when it should have been so right), and also the negative implications for his future relationship with Elsa.
So in the garden by the lake we see her flirting with him, trying to entice him into a corner with her, when all he can think of is how it felt so wrong. This explains why he appears to be flirtacious, but there is also a 'deadness' in him because he won't be 'drawn' to her. And this also explains to me why we can't decide whether they have or they haven't Done It, because usually if a couple have Done It and enjoyed it, they move and talk together in tandem in a characteristic and flirtacious way, but these two are not like that.
..the best way I can describe it is in a 3-legged race when 2 people have one of their legs tied to the other person; when people are 'together' they travel smoothly and at one with each other. In contrast, when they are not running in a co-ordinated way, they knock up against each other and strain against each other, and travel less fast and in a jerky way - well G & E in the garden seem to me like this latter situation.
So my money is on them having had one unsuccessful rendezvous, and they are now quietly having to deal with the tricky implications of that...but what's worse, being 1930, you can't talk about sex... Gosh indigoblue this is wonderful!
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Post by augiesannie on May 30, 2015 0:15:49 GMT
You guys are ALL amazing. Even the scene where he joins them for lemonade and then he tells the children that they are getting married is kind of off. He doesn't seem to relate to her like someone who's just decided to marry her and he looks like he'd rather be anywhere else when he braces himself to tell them. Even though I don't think he decided he loved Maria till a little later, I always think that at that moment, he knows he can't go through with it.
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Post by utility_singer on May 30, 2015 11:06:10 GMT
You guys are ALL amazing. Even the scene where he joins them for lemonade and then he tells the children that they are getting married is kind of off. He doesn't seem to relate to her like someone who's just decided to marry her and he looks like he'd rather be anywhere else when he braces himself to tell them. Even though I don't think he decided he loved Maria till a little later, I always think that at that moment, he knows he can't go through with it. Agreed. He needs the liquid courage to even tell the children. Then relies on Liesl to lead the children in saving him from having to say anything else. Max's facial expressions during the whole show of welcoming Elsa to the family reinforces it. I've always seen his reaction as sort of a bemused cynicism with a dash of "are you daft, man?"
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Post by indigoblue on May 31, 2015 21:57:48 GMT
Yes, but this is unexpected given Max's previous conversation with Elsa on the terrace when he asks her if he hears wedding bells; at this point, the idea must have been at the front of his mind for him to ask the question.
So what makes him so supercilious when G&E actually get engaged? What does he know about G&M then? Is this why he makes cynical expressions, or does he not think they are a good match?
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Post by lemacd on May 31, 2015 23:03:49 GMT
Maybe it became clear that disaster lie ahead when he was watching Elsa play with the children.
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Post by clarinetjamie on May 31, 2015 23:28:14 GMT
Maybe it became clear that disaster lie ahead when he was watching Elsa play with the children. Possibly, but he knew way before that that Maria had some kind of unique charm and influence over him. After all he had a plan to try and use her to get the Captain to allow the children to sing in the festival and I think he even noticed that something was off during the Edelweiss scene.
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2015 23:32:03 GMT
Maybe it became clear that disaster lie ahead when he was watching Elsa play with the children. Possibly, but he knew way before that that Maria had some kind of unique charm and influence over him. After all he had a plan to try and use her to get the Captain to allow the children to sing in the festival and I think he even noticed that something was off during the Edelweiss scene. I was JUST about to say the EXACT same thing!!!! Wow! Same brain!!
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