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Post by augiesannie on Mar 8, 2022 0:21:34 GMT
so lovely that Maria, herself not high-born, brings out that more vulnerable, sweeter side of him.
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Post by flutes9802 on Apr 22, 2022 15:58:52 GMT
The first part of G&E's lake conversation puzzles me a little bit. G pretends to not know that being with him is what is exciting for E. He thinks him being exciting is improbable. To which she replies that he is putting himself down again. He of course laughs it off. Does he put himself down often? Doesn't he seem unfailingly confident? Has he shown vulnerability to E that we don't know about? They don't seem to have a very deep connection.. Ugh- I had a rather long response typed up and lost it just as I was about to post! I think they had a deeper connection than we really get to see. Mostly we see the breakdown of their relationship. I definitely don’t think it’s a superficial relationship. He’s very open with her on some things. He’s willing to put himself down, be self deprecating in front of her. Not really putting on a show imo. It’s also not the first time he’s done it. He was “running himself down again.” This does also keep him from coming across as overly arrogant though. She’s excited to be there; he makes a crack about not being exciting. And it keeps things a bit light. But I do think there’s probably some self awareness in that comment. He probably really doesn’t see himself as exciting. He’s open about what a difficult time he’s had. He’s pretty open about his depression. He talks about how “activity suggests a life filled with purpose.” That’s some massive depression he acknowledges right there. He agrees he may be running away from memories. He also made a point of expressing his gratitude towards her for being a kind of “savior” and bringing “some meaning” to his life. That’s a very kind, lovely thing to say. Very romantic. (And I do think Elsa loved it- as he knew she would. Hence the sarcasm about how she’d “hate” him for saying it. Which she responds in kind to initially. “how unromantic.” I don’t think she entirely knew how to reply overall though- so she downplayed her influence a bit, talks about superficial things. I can see having difficulty in figuring out the “right” response.) It implied he was in a very dark place when they met. I’m sure she knew he was. And she was helpful to him. I don’t really think it was just by making small talk or taking him to social events, though that provided some distraction, I think. Saying she’s like a “savior” and has brought “meaning”implies some level of depth to their relationship. She also talks about how devastated he’d been by his wife’s death. I don’t think she knew just from other people telling her. I think she knew from personal experience with him. Which means they talked about it imo. She very clearly had knowledge about his state of mind to me. I don’t think he talked much about the children though. She stated as much. OTOH- he couldn’t say much. He was busy running away
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 22, 2022 23:36:49 GMT
Congratulations, flutes9802, you look like a fully paid-up member of our ultra-microanalysis club! You may already have read much of this thread, but if not, then you will find plenty more lovely psychoanalysis of G and E's relationship on Page 3 of this thread (from 7 May 2021), and on Page 4 from 9 June 2021. Enjoy and post away!
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Post by indigoblue on Jun 28, 2022 23:32:55 GMT
I was wondering the other day why Georg's eyes pop open so wide on the balcony after Elsa says "Somewhere out there is a young lady who I think will never be a nun."
We've had discussions about this before, like 'didn't he realise people knew he loved her?' 'was he in denial?', and it occurred to me that, being an honourable and rules-based sort of guy, he had probably thought Maria was totally off-limits because of her supposed commitment to the Abbey. So even though he might have been in love with her, he didn't feel it was his place to mess up her life with some romantic proposal - it might destroy her 'purity'.
So when Elsa says those words, she actually 'gives permission' to Georg to go and try to win over Maria:
"Somewhere out there is a young lady (ie an independent female not tied to the church) who will never be a nun (ie even if she leaves the villa, she won't necessarily become a nun, but will remain free). So it takes Elsa to give him the push he needs to see that Maria won't actually become a nun, and would make a better wife and mother.
To me, this explains why his eyes pop open, like something has been revealed to him, and off he scurries...and the rest you know...
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 2, 2022 13:38:33 GMT
indigoblue, I've never really liked this moment, but you got me to really think about why I feel that way. That would have to mean that throughout the dinner hour and in his initial moments on the balcony, he may have accepted that he loves Maria, and been in turmoil about it, but that this is the first moment when he sees a pathway open to pursuing her. I just read a post by Chris&Byng about Georg, the naval hero, strategizing throughout the whole dinner and coming up with a plan. Maybe that feels more true to character to me. OTOH, yours is the most convincing explanation I've seen for the "eyes pop open" moment, so I do thank you for that.
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Post by Chris&Byng on Jul 3, 2022 20:06:16 GMT
I was wondering the other day why Georg's eyes pop open so wide on the balcony after Elsa says "Somewhere out there is a young lady who I think will never be a nun." We've had discussions about this before, like 'didn't he realise people knew he loved her?' 'was he in denial?', and it occurred to me that, being an honourable and rules-based sort of guy, he had probably thought Maria was totally off-limits because of her supposed commitment to the Abbey. So even though he might have been in love with her, he didn't feel it was his place to mess up her life with some romantic proposal - it might destroy her 'purity'. So when Elsa says those words, she actually 'gives permission' to Georg to go and try to win over Maria: "Somewhere out there is a young lady (ie an independent female not tied to the church) who will never be a nun (ie even if she leaves the villa, she won't necessarily become a nun, but will remain free). So it takes Elsa to give him the push he needs to see that Maria won't actually become a nun, and would make a better wife and mother. To me, this explains why his eyes pop open, like something has been revealed to him, and off he scurries...and the rest you know... I have always distilled this scene to one of two possibilities: 1) He's a dumb man and he didn't realize that Elsa knew he loved Maria or 2) the "never going to be a nun" comment gets him. I kind of hang on the second - just because it kind of loops into the first. Elsa knows Maria loves him (hence the confrontation after the party) and given the chance, is certain that she is not going to be a nun.
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Post by missisa on Jul 4, 2022 9:29:12 GMT
I just love these thoughts on why Georg's eyes pop open. I have always seen that as a simple gesture of dissimulation. By now, the love triangle is pretty obvious to all the adults involved (though not strictly stated). For me, Georg had already made up his mind to declare his feelings to Maria from the moment he steps out onto the balcony after dinner. Only Elsa's conversation about the honeymoon clears the way, not her consent (although let's just say that seals a friendly break up between them).
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 4, 2022 13:39:23 GMT
I just love these thoughts on why Georg's eyes pop open. I have always seen that as a simple gesture of dissimulation. By now, the love triangle is pretty obvious to all the adults involved (though not strictly stated). For me, Georg had already made up his mind to declare his feelings to Maria from the moment he steps out onto the balcony after dinner. Only Elsa's conversation about the honeymoon clears the way, not her consent (although let's just say that seals a friendly break up between them). I had to look "dissimulation" up in the dictionary but I think you are right = pretending!!
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Post by missisa on Jul 4, 2022 13:43:05 GMT
Yes augiesannie I meant "pretending". Everybody please excuse my English (sometimes I explain things so literal from Spanish it does not make sense at all!)
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 4, 2022 14:42:19 GMT
Yes augiesannie I meant "pretending". Everybody please excuse my English (sometimes I explain things so literal from Spanish it does not make sense at all!) oh goodness, you don't need to apologize! You used a completely appropriate word, I just don't have as good a vocabulary as you do! I'm glad you taught it to me!
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Post by missisa on Jul 5, 2022 16:25:22 GMT
Yes augiesannie I meant "pretending". Everybody please excuse my English (sometimes I explain things so literal from Spanish it does not make sense at all!) oh goodness, you don't need to apologize! You used a completely appropriate word, I just don't have as good a vocabulary as you do! I'm glad you taught it to me! 😘
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Post by indigoblue on Jul 6, 2022 0:06:33 GMT
My mind also goes back to those comments about Maria never 'making a good nun'. Maybe Georg considered those just a jest, until Elsa said directly to him on the balcony "She'll never make a nun AT ALL!", which was what he needed to see the reality.
Hence the eye-pop.
Then off he hopped.
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Post by missisa on Jul 6, 2022 16:41:51 GMT
Maria herself gave us an spoiler after the puppet show 😂😂
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jul 19, 2022 17:26:07 GMT
indigoblue , I've never really liked this moment, but you got me to really think about why I feel that way. That would have to mean that throughout the dinner hour and in his initial moments on the balcony, he may have accepted that he loves Maria, and been in turmoil about it, but that this is the first moment when he sees a pathway open to pursuing her. I just read a post by Chris&Byng about Georg, the naval hero, strategizing throughout the whole dinner and coming up with a plan. Maybe that feels more true to character to me. OTOH, yours is the most convincing explanation I've seen for the "eyes pop open" moment, so I do thank you for that. I never really liked this moment either. Mostly because I think his reaction is supposed to say "I can't believe you know that I like Maria!", which is a little silly since he is brilliant at reading people, so he has to know that he has been tipping his hand about this for weeks. Even if he wasn't initially aware, I would think Max would let him know, in a teasing sort of way, that he was playing with fire. Elsa does end up giving her permission, but I think this only helps relieve Georg's guilt over breaking up with her. I think once Maria returned, he was going to figure out a way to make her want to stay. He knew she wasn't supposed to be a nun, and she knew she wasn't supposed to be a nun, so I don't think he felt bad about taking her away from the convent. I think the real planning was in how to tactfully end his engagement with Elsa, and then, more importantly, how to win back Maria's trust and friendship. Though, I'm not sure how far he got down the road in planning this second part, as he seemed lost as to where to begin at the gazebo. Maybe he needed more wine..
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Post by reverendcaptain on Dec 12, 2022 22:59:02 GMT
Do you think Georg ever told Elsa "I love you"?
It seems odd to me that he would have asked her to marry him without having ever said it. Though, the way he says it later in the gazebo to Maria, it doesn't seem like it comes that easy for him to say, or that he would say it if he didn't mean it.
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Post by indigoblue on Dec 15, 2022 23:02:10 GMT
Somehow not...although, I can see him saying something like "I love how stylish you are", or "I love how gay you are" (old fashioned sense of course, as they would have said it). But to me theirs would have been a marriage of convenience, and the riddle of Georg would have forever been a bar to him telling her he felt something so deeply profound for her.
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 1, 2023 0:07:10 GMT
totally agree reverendcaptain and indigoblue. He probably wouldn't have used the expression "marriage of convenience," that is mighty cold, but he might say it would be a marriage of like minded close friends, that they both have known great loss and are realistic in their expectations, etc. Just think of how he speaks to her by the lake - that she's brought some meaning into his life, that she is charming, witty, etc. So he'd be very kind and appreciative but no ILY! I agree that the way he says it in the gazebo tells you that it's not easy for him or something he takes lightly.
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 2, 2023 23:16:20 GMT
So do you think Elsa said 'I love you' to Georg?
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 3, 2023 0:35:12 GMT
So do you think Elsa said 'I love you' to Georg? Hmmm my first thought is no. Her behavior by the lake suggests that she’ll hint about her feelings for him but not come right out and say it … and look how even her remark about “searching just like you” scares the whillikers out of him!
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 4, 2023 0:32:39 GMT
Haha!
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Post by dontevenknowher on Jan 4, 2023 4:26:54 GMT
So do you think Elsa said 'I love you' to Georg? Hmmm my first thought is no. Her behavior by the lake suggests that she’ll hint about her feelings for him but not come right out and say it … and look how even her remark about “searching just like you” scares the whillikers out of him! I agree with her not quite having the gumption to up and say it to him. I look to her banter with Max about how she recognizes that Georg is still broken-hearted, and she could miss “far too easily” in reading him. Not to mention Max’s response about her late husband leaving her with a “terrible fortune.” I’ve always worked on the assumption that the high society marriages of that time were still more contracts than love matches, and the Captain’s first marriage was one of the shining exceptions. Elsa was in a convenient first marriage, and the Captain ticks all her boxes for a second husband. And while I do think she may have genuinely felt something for him, I’m not sure she’d have been brave enough to say it to him, knowing it could spook him, as it did by the lake. I think she knows she has his interest, but not his heart, and I think she may even suspect she’d never really get it, even if they did marry. I think that’s what’s so upsetting, even heartbreaking, to her about what happens with him and Maria: he was capable of loving again, just not her.
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 12, 2023 0:52:20 GMT
I'm just wondering whether Elsa's first marriage was also a marriage of convenience?
Also, just an aside, that I have at last posted the story which Augiesannie suggested on this thread in May 2021, asking what happened in Vienna to make Georg and Elsa so unsure of each other beside the lake. First chapter of The Vienna Incident on FanFiction.net now, second and final chapter to follow soon...
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 13, 2023 23:34:55 GMT
such a great story indigoblue. I was just rereading this thread and would like to call out something else entirely, that flutes9802 said in April. She offered a good explanation for another line that never made a lot of sense: "you're going to hate me for this." Why would Elsa hate Georg saying she's his savior? I mean she says it's unromantic but it's not! I like the idea that he was being sarcastic, that of course he knew she'd love it.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 19, 2023 20:32:34 GMT
I'm just wondering whether Elsa's first marriage was also a marriage of convenience? Also, just an aside, that I have at last posted the story which Augiesannie suggested on this thread in May 2021, asking what happened in Vienna to make Georg and Elsa so unsure of each other beside the lake. First chapter of The Vienna Incident on FanFiction.net now, second and final chapter to follow soon... I think definitely Elsa's first marriage was of convenience. I'm basing this solely on he reaction to Max saying that her husband left her with a terrible fortune. She doesn't seem too broken up over his passing, unlike Georg who is a shell of his former self. I would guess that most high society marriages were arranged by the families involved (to keep all that lovely money in the family). How old do you think Elsa was when she got married off? Was she ever in love? Even if it was someone beneath her that she couldn't marry? Did Georg get to choose Agathe, or was that an arrangement that just so happened to turn in to real love? Ok, on to The Vienna Incident. It's such a good story, Indigo! You write such vivid scenes. I feel like I'm there. Please post the next chapter soon! I have to know what happens to the Rubins! And how Elsa reacts to Georg asking for her help. I found it really interesting that you had Elsa being more wealthy than Georg, to the point where he was almost intimidated by her wealth. I don't know that we've talked about that here. Who had more money, Georg or Elsa? They had to be somewhat in the same ballpark or they wouldn't be talking about getting married. Still, could this be a source of friction between them? I also liked that Elsa had a connection to the Nazis, and that it didn't occur to her that this would bother Georg. I wonder what her political convictions actually were. What happened to her after the Anschluss? Did she get to keep her wealth and status? I'm sure she was happy to not be climbing mountains with Georg and his 7 kids. I want to wait until I read the next chapter to see how much the events in the story could impact Georg's attitude towards Elsa at the villa. If things get too bad he might consider taking back his invitation!
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 21, 2023 0:28:46 GMT
Second (and final) chapter of The Vienna Incident up on Fanfic.net!
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 21, 2023 13:10:54 GMT
Can't wait to read indigoblue's latest chapter. But I am going to save it for savoring while the rest of my home city watches football later tonight ugh. reverendcaptain I've always thought that Elsa stayed and let herself get sucked into believing, like the stage version says, "there's no way to stop it." I don't think she would have been an evil collaborator, but mistakenly believed that she could stay on the sidelines, until it was too late. I wrote a story once where postwar Georg, feeling just a wee bit guilty and sentimental, hires a private detective to figure out what happened to her but she simply had disappeared into the whirlwind.
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 21, 2023 21:29:34 GMT
More on the eye-pop: I just watched the balcony scene again and it seemed pretty obvious to me this time. Georg broaches the subject by saying it’s no use, he’s been dishonest, when people talk of marriage, etc. In other words, all about their relationship. Elsa replies in kind: he’s far too independent, not the man for her, enjoyed every minute …. No one talks about Maria and they are almost home free and then Elsa drops her bomb. That’s why I think he is surprised. Like they have almost achieved a civilized superficial breakup and then … they haven’t.
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Post by indigoblue on Jan 25, 2023 15:22:21 GMT
And he must have been hoping no-one had noticed him being all eyes for Maria!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jan 25, 2023 20:49:20 GMT
I've never thought out the eye popping like that augiesannie . You think Georg was trying to get away with not mentioning the real reason he is breaking up with Elsa (which is of course, Maria), so he kind of dances around it. Elsa then takes over and kind of tries to break up with him first (I'm sure so she can tell people that this is how it happened and save herself embarrassment). Then Elsa just can't help herself but bring up Maria, and he is shocked that she went there? This scenario would allow him to know that Elsa knows he is in love with Maria (which is my main problem with my current eye pop theory of him reacting with shock that Elsa knew anything about his feelings for Maria. Ultimately, I think he's too smart for this, which is why I've never liked this eye pop). Is he just surprised that she mentioned it (because they were doing so well at avoiding it), or afraid that she'll then launch into something more about Maria and end the amicable break up?
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Post by augiesannie on Jan 28, 2023 16:29:28 GMT
yes, reverendcaptain, that's what I was thinking. Why it took me ten years of fandom to figure that out for myself, I dunno.
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