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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 4, 2020 17:39:35 GMT
"Here on approval" clearly (to me) means on the *childrens'* approval. I always assumed that no one really cares how the children feel about this marriage at all. Elsa is there to meet them (and to see what would become her second home), but I don't think they have any veto power. "Here on approval" is an interesting line though. Max replies with "I approve of that. How can you miss?". If it is truly the children's approval, Max already would know by her priorities that she is going to "miss". Maybe he is just being kind to his friend and trying to boost her confidence, knowing that children in this situation could never really voice disapproval about anything anyway? I thought maybe "on approval" meant, that she (Elsa) had to approve of the Salzburg estate before she would marry Georg, but that doesn't really work either with the "How can you miss?" line. Then she follows with "He's no ordinary man" and talk of his heartache. So the approval has to be something about Georg. I don't know. What does everyone else think? Whose approval is she seeking? Maybe it is the children's, which would then secure Georg's, and ease his heartache?
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Post by utility_singer on Apr 5, 2020 12:47:47 GMT
This is one of those times where I think we can read too much into a scene. This is the first time she's meeting the children. IMO, her thought process is that if the children approve, then he would most certainly propose. Elsa would only care what they think on that basis. Max is joking with her, as he always does. Go along to get along. I do think that with her comments about Georg, she is referring to the same---the childrens' approval. If they like her, then he'll be comfortable enough to marry her. She senses his reluctance, too, in the lakeside scene, and that is what she's talking about when she says the 'wedding bells pealing madly but not necessarily for me' line. She knows he is missing having a wife but also knows she may not be what he wants/needs. That allows her to accept the inevitable later on, when Maria returns, and graciously step aside. It's like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, Elsa knew all along she was the square peg, and finally admitted Maria was the round one.
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Post by indigoblue on Apr 5, 2020 18:31:17 GMT
I agree, it can't have been easy for Elsa either, if the Georg she had known in Vienna was the Georg we saw beside the lake-all flirty and playful, but very evasive at the same time. How different he was as soon as the kids arrived in the rowboat! She must have felt very uncertain when he settled into his rather gruff old self at the villa, especially when he began making eyes at Maria.
Maybe Elsa had big misgivings about the whole thing as soon as she arrived at the villa, but decided to drive on all the same? The only alternative would have been to leave. This would explain her sudden change of heart on the balcony before she left, because perhaps it was at the front of her mind all the time. It can't have been easy to grit her teeth despite everything going wrong, so far from Vienna.So I'm wondering whether this is flavouring her words in this scene with Max already?
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Post by tsomlyss on Apr 8, 2020 23:54:07 GMT
But she hasn't met the children yet at this point in the film. Georg has just said "I wonder where the children are" and went to look for them. How could she believe that they already approve of her being there. And it is prefaced with ealier with "have you made up Georgs mind yet, do I hear wedding bells" and then she says "here on approval", I take this to mean that Georg is ok with her being there and possibly being there on a permanent basis. I don't know though.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Apr 9, 2020 22:28:27 GMT
But she hasn't met the children yet at this point in the film. Georg has just said "I wonder where the children are" and went to look for them. How could she believe that they already approve of her being there. And it is prefaced with ealier with "have you made up Georgs mind yet, do I hear wedding bells" and then she says "here on approval", I take this to mean that Georg is ok with her being there and possibly being there on a permanent basis. I don't know though. You are right - she hasn't met the children yet. Though, I don't think she believes she has their approval yet, only that she needs to get it to secure Georg. I think she's just gossiping with Max about what needs to happen, and being evasive as usual. Then Max assures her that whatever she wants she always finds a way to get, so she'll have no problem getting their approval once she meets them. It's a very confusing conversation..
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Post by emilia78 on Apr 15, 2020 8:59:41 GMT
"Here on approval" clearly (to me) means on the *childrens'* approval. I always assumed that no one really cares how the children feel about this marriage at all. Elsa is there to meet them (and to see what would become her second home), but I don't think they have any veto power. I agree that it means on the children's approval. Georg wants to see how Elsa interacts with the children, if she can be a member of the family and form a bond with them. The fact that G wants to see how the children react to her means that he is thinking seriously about marrying her as Frau Schmidt told Maria. And he is checking. Ok the children dont have veto power but they can reject her and make her go away like the previous governesses or just be sad with her. Their sadness crashes Georg! Also I think they had intimate relations, otherwise what they were doing during all this time he was with her? for example the previous time he stayed with her for a whole month. As they are both widowers, middle-aged and experienced, rich and aristocrats, we can safely conclude that they had relations. However, I feel that they see it in a more superficial way, just to have fun and a marvellous time and not so full of deep feelings.
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Post by augiesannie on Apr 18, 2020 23:51:35 GMT
This has been a very thought provoking conversation. I don't know if I can buy that "on approval" means Georg wants the children's approval - he's not much of a father to them at this point - maybe Elsa just means more generally that she knows Georg hasn't made up his mind yet, and that this visit is going to be decisive in some way. I have written one story where E&G did, and many where they didn't, so I guess the latter is what I find most convincing!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 20, 2021 22:10:42 GMT
Do you think G&E went into this relationship with the understanding that they would be more business partners than loving husband and wife? Or were they both hoping to fall madly in love? They never seem to have any deep conversation, so I doubt that either of them spelled out their expectations directly, but I wonder what each of them was hoping their marriage would be like.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 20, 2021 23:43:00 GMT
There is so much more behind a successful marriage than just falling in love, and I am sure that, both being older and married before, Georg and Elsa know this. However, I think it gradually becomes clear their initial attraction is largely cosmetic, and that those essential shared values are missing from their relationship. Added to that, it becomes apparent that Maria and Georg have more in common; my guess is that these are:
-a loyalty and honesty deep down (although obscured initially by Georg's sarcasm) -patriotism and love of the countryside -sense of duty? -love of (his) children
Any more suggestions?!
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laurynvi
Full Member
I ask you to stay.
Posts: 212
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Post by laurynvi on Mar 21, 2021 22:01:08 GMT
It does not seem to me like either were expecting a loving marriage - more that the other seemed compatible, and ticked off all the requisite boxes in a suitable partner...
I think on paper Georg is everything Elsa wants - he’s wealthy, handsome, will bring her even more prestige... and she’s happy enough going through the motions even though she knows his heart will never be in it, until she sees how he is with Maria and understands his heart has not died with his first wife after all.
For Georg, I feel he feels he is indebted to Elsa. Georg pre-Maria probably felt very comfortable with Elsa, she was sufficiently distracting, amusing, and doesn’t seem like someone who would probe him too deeply. I feel he probably would have been just fine with status quo, but is able to realize that if a woman like Elsa were to invest her time and company in him, she at least deserved an engagement and a marriage.
Of course, Georg post-Maria realizes Elsa ticks off none of the boxes he needs, but already feels committed.
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Post by augiesannie on Mar 21, 2021 23:13:20 GMT
I think that's right - it's certainly consistent that she'd still have gone after Maria at the party, even if she were motivated by superficial feelings for Georg, and that she leaves the scene gracefully when she realizes he is capable of more. But OTOH maybe Elsa's behavior by the lake ("searching just like you") and her beautiful sad eyes when they split up, suggest that maybe she started out with a practical attitude but that she's developed some feelings for him.
I think that's right about Georg - she's good company, he seems grateful to her, and he's an honorable man. He's been running from his deeper feelings.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 25, 2021 22:36:42 GMT
Oh, you guys all summarize these things so wonderfully!
I also think that they both went in just looking for a match that worked on the surface and wasn't too hard to maintain. But, I do think that Elsa started falling for him much more than he was falling for her.
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 7, 2021 1:33:20 GMT
The first part of G&E's lake conversation puzzles me a little bit. G pretends to not know that being with him is what is exciting for E. He thinks him being exciting is improbable. To which she replies that he is putting himself down again. He of course laughs it off.
Does he put himself down often? Doesn't he seem unfailingly confident? Has he shown vulnerability to E that we don't know about? They don't seem to have a very deep connection..
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Post by captainfraulein on May 7, 2021 10:35:12 GMT
The first part of G&E's lake conversation puzzles me a little bit. G pretends to not know that being with him is what is exciting for E. He thinks him being exciting is improbable. To which she replies that he is putting himself down again. He of course laughs it off. Does he put himself down often? Doesn't he seem unfailingly confident? Has he shown vulnerability to E that we don't know about? They don't seem to have a very deep connection.. I agree that they don’t seem to have much of a connection as he always seems to be quite rigid when he’s around her, especially during their lakeside conversation. Perhaps it's a reference to their lifestyle differences? G isn't fond of the social events that come with being aristocratic, whereas E loves being social with her "grand and glorious" parties. So in a way, he maybe is confused as to why she finds being with him so exciting, especially as they don't share the same interests. I also don't think he has shown much vulnerability to E because when she tries to pry out his real feelings ("running away from memories") he seems to shy away from answering her. Their conversation at the lakeside confuses me and I doubt any of us will ever fully understand it. Perhaps it was done that way to show how complex their relationship really is.
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Post by indigoblue on May 8, 2021 0:26:06 GMT
I agree, that is just the way I see it.
I always try to look at their body language to suss out what they are really thinking, because as captainfraulein says, they have a complex relationship. One possible alternative reason to explain their odd conversations and relationship is if they had met in Vienna and been wildly attracted to each other. Being two widows and Georg away from home, this presented a perfect opportunity for a very sensual and intense relationship based largely, as Georg was gradually finding out, on superficial qualities. Maybe he then felt it was time to separate Elsa from her own environment and see her for what she was (and whether she would cope with Salzburg life), so he invites her to the villa.
As so often happens when you take someone out of their own environment, they don't seem quite so attractive, and maybe already he is getting cold feet as they walk around the lake...and perhaps he also feels guilty about their torrid relationship now that he is in the tranquil environment of home, near the children. So we see G cooling off big time and playing hard to get, which Elsa senses and has to resort to flirting to try to regain his interest, very tough when they have previously spent much time skin to skin. And things get worse when Georg begins to fall for Maria's more non-sexual qualities...
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Post by augiesannie on May 9, 2021 23:00:46 GMT
I think this is a wonderful explanation indigoblue. It does require one to accept the idea of G&E having a certain intimacy which I found surprisingly easy to write about. Another way I've thought about it, comes from trying to make sense of her having brought meaning back into his life and being his savior. Because as others say above, he doesn't seem that close to her now. So I have a theory that when they first met, he was a mess, she had more experience being widowed, and he really did lean on her for the basics - maybe less drinking, better sleep, distraction of a sort. Now he has his feet back under him and is ready for something different. Which leads nicely to indigoblue's eloquent summary above.
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Post by indigoblue on May 10, 2021 22:54:53 GMT
Hmm! Interesting...so do you mean she initially 'took him in hand' to curb his excesses, perhaps showing him something of Vienna life.
Then gradually they fell for each other hook, line and sinker, following which she showed him something of another life...
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Post by Chris&Byng on May 11, 2021 22:00:29 GMT
The first part of G&E's lake conversation puzzles me a little bit. G pretends to not know that being with him is what is exciting for E. He thinks him being exciting is improbable. To which she replies that he is putting himself down again. He of course laughs it off. Does he put himself down often? Doesn't he seem unfailingly confident? Has he shown vulnerability to E that we don't know about? They don't seem to have a very deep connection.. I agree that they don’t seem to have much of a connection as he always seems to be quite rigid when he’s around her, especially during their lakeside conversation. Perhaps it's a reference to their lifestyle differences? G isn't fond of the social events that come with being aristocratic, whereas E loves being social with her "grand and glorious" parties. So in a way, he maybe is confused as to why she finds being with him so exciting, especially as they don't share the same interests. I also don't think he has shown much vulnerability to E because when she tries to pry out his real feelings ("running away from memories") he seems to shy away from answering her. Their conversation at the lakeside confuses me and I doubt any of us will ever fully understand it. Perhaps it was done that way to show how complex their relationship really is. "...I do have the finest couturier in Vienna, and the most glittering circle of friends"...BUT I feel that is about all she has going for her. There's not much depth to Elsa as a person and I think Georg realizes this especially when she is in the country and out of her element, so to speak. The contrasts between what life should be like if they were married and what Elsa is like personality-wise are evident in this conversation.
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Post by augiesannie on May 11, 2021 22:21:42 GMT
I agree that they don’t seem to have much of a connection as he always seems to be quite rigid when he’s around her, especially during their lakeside conversation. Perhaps it's a reference to their lifestyle differences? G isn't fond of the social events that come with being aristocratic, whereas E loves being social with her "grand and glorious" parties. So in a way, he maybe is confused as to why she finds being with him so exciting, especially as they don't share the same interests. I also don't think he has shown much vulnerability to E because when she tries to pry out his real feelings ("running away from memories") he seems to shy away from answering her. Their conversation at the lakeside confuses me and I doubt any of us will ever fully understand it. Perhaps it was done that way to show how complex their relationship really is. "...I do have the finest couturier in Vienna, and the most glittering circle of friends"...BUT I feel that is about all she has going for her. There's not much depth to Elsa as a person and I think Georg realizes this especially when she is in the country and out of her element, so to speak. The contrasts between what life should be like if they were married and what Elsa is like personality-wise are evident in this conversation. and she kind of knows it, that's why she tells Max the bells aren't necessarily pealing for her. I do agree that seeing Elsa in the country is likely to put her in a different light. But I also want to point out that 1) they JUST arrived, it's almost like he knew that would happen from the start or something and 2) Georg must have had SOME taste for the high life because he spent a month at a time in Vienna. But yes.
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Post by indigoblue on May 11, 2021 23:26:51 GMT
I find it strange that he had asked the baroness to stay at the villa before he left for Vienna (for several weeks) to see her. Or at least, he must have felt confident about his relationship with her when he asked her back. This is why I think they had a big whoopsie in Vienna as described above, to account for their odd body language back in Salzburg.
On the one hand, the baroness looks like the cat that got the cream in the car on the way back, all slinky and self-satisfied, and she addresses the captain as Georg (suggestive maybe that they are lovers). Then at the lakeside he is evasive, like he is building a brick wall around himself and she flirts dangerously as though trying to catch him again; thereafter she is constantly having to work hard to engage him, frequently being wrongfooted or puzzled by him (more like they are not lovers/close). And her conversation with Max about wedding bells not pealing for her suggests she is confused and unsure about his intentions.
Another thing:if he hates stumbling about to waltzes, glittering salons and gay salons, how come he can dance so well?!
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Post by captainfraulein on May 12, 2021 8:52:42 GMT
Another thing:if he hates stumbling about to waltzes, glittering salons and gay salons, how come he can dance so well?! I guess it might be to do with his upbringing? Or perhaps he did enjoy that sort of thing when his wife was alive?
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Post by augiesannie on May 15, 2021 9:49:01 GMT
this is so great indigoblue and captainfraulein. 1. I don't think it's all that unusual for someone to be a prisoner of his talents - to be good at something and come to detest it in favor of something more/different. Celebrities might feel that way. Maybe former naval heroes too? Or it could be something as simple as he loved dancing with his wife so much that he doesn't like to anymore.. 2. indigoblue you have just written the perfect setup for a great story - what happened in between when G went to Vienna (and he doesn't just go to escort her back, since he is gone long enough for Maria and the children to bond) and when they return with Max? I wrote one version of this, but a very particular one, and your scenario sounds better. I would love to see others. Even though I know it is not the kind of thing you usually write. But how about a one shot from each person's POV the night before they leave to return to Salzburg?
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 15, 2021 21:18:33 GMT
I still vote that G&E were never..together. But this scenario is very fun to think about. It would make G falling to M all the more exasperating for E too. She would have to be thinking - What in the world is happening? We were so hot for each other in Vienna now he will hardly talk to me. An who is this nun that he is making eyes at? How do I get him back to Vienna and back to our awesome relationship there without children and governesses?
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Post by indigoblue on May 15, 2021 23:35:16 GMT
Ha! Augiesannie, I would love to, but am currently deep into a story requested by reverendcaptain and laurynvi about M going back to the Abbey...allow me a few more months...
[Postscript Jan 2023: finally posted on Fanfiction.net as The Vienna Incident under my author's name of Indigobluewriter]
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Post by augiesannie on May 16, 2021 20:21:52 GMT
I love that you are in such demand!
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Post by indigoblue on May 16, 2021 21:46:49 GMT
So do I! Heh, heh!
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Post by indigoblue on May 26, 2021 10:27:53 GMT
I suppose one other explanation for their interesting body language is that Elsa desperately wants/has wanted to get more intimate with him, but he doesn't, and has resisted it in Vienna. Then when they get to the villa and she is becoming coquettish for the same end, and Georg is going the other way (being near his children), then perhaps it is enough for him to start putting distance between them.
Awkward if she has just arrived for an extended stay, with Max as an interested observer!
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Post by reverendcaptain on May 27, 2021 16:34:08 GMT
I suppose one other explanation for their interesting body language is that Elsa desperately wants/has wanted to get more intimate with him, but he doesn't, and has resisted it in Vienna. Then when they get to the villa and she is becoming coquettish for the same end, and Georg is going the other way (being near his children), then perhaps it is enough for him to start putting distance between them. Awkward if she has just arrived for an extended stay, with Max as an interested observer! This is my take on the situation exactly. She wants to be more intimate, Georg has thus far held her off with talk of propriety (but really his isn't over his wife and doesn't know if he ever will be). She feels that being invited to the villa is his way of saying he wants to be more serious, so she is turning up the flirting and giggling and complimenting, hoping for more from him. Though, she still knows that something is missing, as says as much to Max on the terrace. She has to feel out of control on a number of levels. Obviously in her relationship, but also in just basic daily activities. In Vienna, she would have been in control of the schedule, events, entertainment, people they are socialzing with etc. In Salzburg, she can't just call up some friends to come over for drinks or set up an evening at the opera. She is relying on Georg to do that, and he doesn't seem to be interested in setting these things up. She is probably happy to have the party to plan because this puts her more in her element.
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Post by indigoblue on May 30, 2021 23:00:31 GMT
Do you think Georg goes off Elsa because she is too much of an organiser? A lot of men don't naturally like organising social events, and I wonder whether Georg already feels her Vienna life (which she organises) is too much of a whirlwind? So when Elsa jumps up and suggests he throws a grand and glorious party, does his heart sink as he feels 'here we go again'?
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Post by Chris&Byng on May 31, 2021 0:34:02 GMT
Do you think Georg goes off Elsa because she is too much of an organiser? A lot of men don't naturally like organising social events, and I wonder whether Georg already feels her Vienna life (which she organises) is too much of a whirlwind? So when Elsa jumps up and suggests he throws a grand and glorious party, does his heart sink as he feels 'here we go again'? I don't think Georg is a fan of the social scene in general (i.e. soaking himself in champagne and stumbling about...) and probably only agreed to the party because the children were excited. I think he also knows Elsa is pushing him towards a commitment - an engagement party or at least an announcement? He's already doubting what he thought his path at this point, I am quite sure.
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