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Post by indigoblue on Jun 9, 2021 22:34:00 GMT
I was thinking about Georg's interesting comment that Elsa had been his 'saviour', because this is a strong and emotive word, not a word a naval commander would have used flippantly!
To justify using this expression, it occurred to me that he may have become very depressed after his wife died, both from bereavement and perhaps not knowing how to live up to the expectations of 7 kids. Maybe Elsa took him and showed him a new and interesting life in Vienna with entertaining people which gradually drew him out of his sadness.
An alternative reason could be that he began to drink serious amounts of alcohol to drown his feelings, something she might have pointed out before she managed to distract him from the bottle with her entertainments in and out of bed. In both these situations, Elsa's improvements would justify him calling her his 'saviour', because the alternative would not have been pretty.
Thinking about this, I remembered how I have always felt that the Pink Lemonade they drink is a rather tame drink for the period and the type of people they are; I think they would be more likely to be enjoying something with a little vodka or gin in it. But what if Elsa has got Georg 'on the wagon', so will not allow him any alcoholic drinks? This might explain both this non-alcoholic thirst-quencher (despite the fact that Max doesn't like it - surely Elsa would know that?), and also, Elsa's slightly officious handling of the jug and glasses - she is quite possessive of them!
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Post by indigoblue on Jun 9, 2021 22:52:30 GMT
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Post by augiesannie on Jun 12, 2021 20:30:40 GMT
huh. Never noticed that before indigoblue. (nearly every time I leave this board, I have to go watch the movie again for something brilliant that's just been pointed out to me). he does have that drink after the puppet show but it might be a non-alcoholic substitute... I definitely have thought that he drank too much and that Elsa was the one who distracted him and also helped him, through her own experience, learn to handle the grief, and that's what he meant. He said she "brought some meaning" into his life, so it has to be something pretty, well, meaningful.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Jun 27, 2021 22:51:09 GMT
Georg seems very "in control" to be drunk in front of anyone. Maybe when he was alone late at night at free to grieve openly? I think that the wine on the dinner table and the side table before Edelweiss was real alcohol. I can't decide if I think the lemonade was spiked or not. Maybe it was just afternoon refreshments and not alcohol?
Do you think he got drunk in Vienna? He makes it seem like he did (soaking himself in champagne), but that would be poor form wouldn't it? To be loaded at your girlfriend's party, that is full of socialites that are looking for a reason to gossip?
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Post by utility_singer on Jun 28, 2021 10:54:31 GMT
Georg seems very "in control" to be drunk in front of anyone. Maybe when he was alone late at night at free to grieve openly? I think that the wine on the dinner table and the side table before Edelweiss was real alcohol. I can't decide if I think the lemonade was spiked or not. Maybe it was just afternoon refreshments and not alcohol? Do you think he got drunk in Vienna? He makes it seem like he did (soaking himself in champagne), but that would be poor form wouldn't it? To be loaded at your girlfriend's party, that is full of socialites that are looking for a reason to gossip? I believe the "pink lemonade" was likely very full of alcohol, the way they discuss it. Also, adults at the time drank much more freely than we do now without being considered alcoholics (thinking of reference to the "three martini" business lunches, and wives greeting husbands at the door after a day at work with a cocktail). My own grandparents and in-laws had a cocktail before dinner every night, and a nightcap before bed whether they were at home or out. I do think he often overindulged in Vienna, not to the point of being obviously drunk, but enough to numb himself to his pain.
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Post by augiesannie on Jul 4, 2021 19:07:16 GMT
Georg seems very "in control" to be drunk in front of anyone. Maybe when he was alone late at night at free to grieve openly? I think that the wine on the dinner table and the side table before Edelweiss was real alcohol. I can't decide if I think the lemonade was spiked or not. Maybe it was just afternoon refreshments and not alcohol? Do you think he got drunk in Vienna? He makes it seem like he did (soaking himself in champagne), but that would be poor form wouldn't it? To be loaded at your girlfriend's party, that is full of socialites that are looking for a reason to gossip? I believe the "pink lemonade" was likely very full of alcohol, the way they discuss it. Also, adults at the time drank much more freely than we do now without being considered alcoholics (thinking of reference to the "three martini" business lunches, and wives greeting husbands at the door after a day at work with a cocktail). My own grandparents and in-laws had a cocktail before dinner every night, and a nightcap before bed whether they were at home or out. I do think he often overindulged in Vienna, not to the point of being obviously drunk, but enough to numb himself to his pain. And enough to make him stumble through waltzes, although perhaps he wasn't light on his feet naturally.
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Post by indigoblue on Aug 14, 2021 21:43:37 GMT
Ah, but we know from the Laendler that he was light on his feet. Do you think he was exaggerating about stumbling through waltzes in Vienna? Why?
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Post by augiesannie on Aug 18, 2021 21:31:13 GMT
Ah, but we know from the Laendler that he was light on his feet. Do you think he was exaggerating about stumbling through waltzes in Vienna? Why? well maybe he wasn't exaggerating if the points above about his being drunk in Vienna were true. But, maybe he was exaggerating in that way that very accomplished people are often quite modest about themselves as a way of trying to remain endearing and approachable?
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Post by missisa on Sept 16, 2021 15:39:28 GMT
OK guys, I'm going to rescue this topic to give my humble opinion.
I think they were possibly intimate (during Georg's long stays in Vienna) but never got to it, can't you see how desperate Elsa is to get closer to him? It can only be a sign that she has touched the honey with her lips ... but nothing more. LOL
I agree with the idea that Georg is still mourning, although from time to time and after several years, he is allowing himself to "rejoice" a little with the presence of Elsa, on the other hand a magnificent woman, but a bit superficial for him.
Elsa's "approval" for me is 90% referring to the children, 10% referring to Georg who would like to see his "potential wife" in the same environment and pass that test. Furthermore, Georg is a strict but loving father despite discipline: he wants the best for his children and probably wanted to see their reaction.
Now, let's be honest: no matter what historical time we are in, chastity goes in the personality and values of each couple and in the case of Georg, he seems to be an honorable catholic man and in total control of himself. If this were not so the, impression made on Maria would have been quite different (not that of a man of integrity but that of a random dandy). That's what makes the captain sexy and delicious, not just his physical appearance, but his moral standards.
So my vote goes for "NO" - in fact, maybe that's why they sped up the proposal so much after Maria's escape. I imagine Elsa hinting at Georg the suitability of taking such a step, and Georg thinking "what the hell, Maria is already gone, I must clear my mind and give a mother to my children after 5 years".
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Post by augiesannie on Sept 25, 2021 23:01:00 GMT
OK guys, I'm going to rescue this topic to give my humble opinion. I think they were possibly intimate (during Georg's long stays in Vienna) but never got to it, can't you see how desperate Elsa is to get closer to him? It can only be a sign that she has touched the honey with her lips ... but nothing more. LOL I agree with the idea that Georg is still mourning, although from time to time and after several years, he is allowing himself to "rejoice" a little with the presence of Elsa, on the other hand a magnificent woman, but a bit superficial for him. Elsa's "approval" for me is 90% referring to the children, 10% referring to Georg who would like to see his "potential wife" in the same environment and pass that test. Furthermore, Georg is a strict but loving father despite discipline: he wants the best for his children and probably wanted to see their reaction. Now, let's be honest: no matter what historical time we are in, chastity goes in the personality and values of each couple and in the case of Georg, he seems to be an honorable catholic man and in total control of himself. If this were not so the, impression made on Maria would have been quite different (not that of a man of integrity but that of a random dandy). That's what makes the captain sexy and delicious, not just his physical appearance, but his moral standards. So my vote goes for "NO" - in fact, maybe that's why they sped up the proposal so much after Maria's escape. I imagine Elsa hinting at Georg the suitability of taking such a step, and Georg thinking "what the hell, Maria is already gone, I must clear my mind and give a mother to my children after 5 years". Hi missisa, I'm so glad you weighed in. And even though I love me some Hot Georg, and after all Georg and Elsa were not innocent virgins, still, you are making a lot of sense. He IS a man of honor, isn't sure she's the right wife for him (I agree, a lot of that is because of the children).
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Post by indigoblue on Sept 27, 2021 20:28:34 GMT
Do you think on one night in Vienna they both got so soaked in champagne that...it happened...and they were both so shocked at their lack of control they (or maybe just Georg) took a step back? This might explain the distance between them when they get to the lakeside at the villa.
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Post by missisa on Sept 27, 2021 21:11:56 GMT
I've read that theory before (I don't know if it was yours @indigoblue) and it's not far-fetched.
I like what @augiesannie says that they are not innocent virgins LOL and it is possible that precisely because of that "slip" between Elsa and Georg that "tension" a little detached due to the lack of chemistry is breathed.
It would also explain many things: that Frau Schmidt suspected something ("I shouldn't be saying this to you... but if you ask me, the captain's thinking seriously of marrying her before summer's over"...), surely when Georg returned from one of those escapades to Vienna she would notice him a bit regretful, overwhelmed, trying to hide something (poor Georg trying to hide that kind of things from a woman specially a housekeeper LOL).
It would also probably explain why the Children eventually ask him: "-To visit Baroness Schraeder again? -Why can't we ever see the baroness? -Why would she want to see you? ", It is clear that they must have perceived something in their father from previous visits... (love? Butterflies in stomach? A crush?) 😅😅😅
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 30, 2021 22:21:45 GMT
FYI missisa if you want to tag someone, you can hover your mouse over their name to see their user name. For example, augiesannie is actually "at admin" not "at augiesannie". Make sense? I had problems with that when I first joined this board too.
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Post by missisa on Oct 1, 2021 18:40:09 GMT
Ohhh reverendcaptain (did I quoted you the right way?) I do appreciate your help! I will try to do what you say when on my laptop since I use to check this forum and participate with my cell. This is the reason why I probably do it wrong... ☺
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Post by Chris&Byng on Oct 1, 2021 18:50:44 GMT
Just to totally take the lemonade train on a side-tour of the mountains... I always saw the pink lemonade as plain old pink lemonade. Lighting-wise, I suspect it's well before lunchtime at the villa (and the children leave to go into town for most of the day), so a non-alcoholic beverage choice would be in order. Georg is not the lemonade type in my opinion. HOWEVER, I do feel that the lemonade is very symbolic of the scene and the emotions of the characters. You know the saying "don't give me milk when I ask for cream"... It's obvious Georg is uncomfortable with his decision to marry Elsa and how happy life is (is not) going to be. He'd much rather have Maria (so, milk vs. cream). At the beginning of this scene, Elsa is all about "something long and cool Georg?" and he quickly says "no thank you, darling". As the conversation about Maria and the new governess gets more awkward, he eventually arrives at: "I think I am brave enough to try some of that"...very symbolic of his feelings...it's really an "it's all I've got to drink now, so I better take it and get through this moment" kind of vibe that matches his emotional state.
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Post by missisa on Oct 1, 2021 18:55:07 GMT
100% agree @chris&Byng !!
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Post by augiesannie on Oct 12, 2021 23:54:34 GMT
Just to totally take the lemonade train on a side-tour of the mountains... I always saw the pink lemonade as plain old pink lemonade. Lighting-wise, I suspect it's well before lunchtime at the villa (and the children leave to go into town for most of the day), so a non-alcoholic beverage choice would be in order. Georg is not the lemonade type in my opinion. HOWEVER, I do feel that the lemonade is very symbolic of the scene and the emotions of the characters. You know the saying "don't give me milk when I ask for cream"... It's obvious Georg is uncomfortable with his decision to marry Elsa and how happy life is (is not) going to be. He'd much rather have Maria (so, milk vs. cream). At the beginning of this scene, Elsa is all about "something long and cool Georg?" and he quickly says "no thank you, darling". As the conversation about Maria and the new governess gets more awkward, he eventually arrives at: "I think I am brave enough to try some of that"...very symbolic of his feelings...it's really an "it's all I've got to drink now, so I better take it and get through this moment" kind of vibe that matches his emotional state. this was an awesome side tour.
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Post by augiesannie on Oct 12, 2021 23:55:09 GMT
Ohhh reverendcaptain (did I quoted you the right way?) I do appreciate your help! I will try to do what you say when on my laptop since I use to check this forum and participate with my cell. This is the reason why I probably do it wrong... ☺ I have figured out many things about this forum over eight years but I apparently cannot change my user name, unfortunately.
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Post by missisa on Feb 28, 2022 15:16:54 GMT
I'm going to push a little this thread of Elsa and Georg, if you allow me... augiesanniewhat do you think goes through their heads while they waltz together? I've never really scanned this mini-scene (how short is it, dammit! ) but they look splendid together and so aristocratic, in their evening gowns, dancing. Georg is having a good time at the party after all (he has danced with Maria, seen the acclaimed number of his children and gave a public bazinga to Her Zeller because of the Austrian flag -if you know what I mean). On the other hand, Elsa has just brilliantly disposed of Maria and finished toasting with champagne. And they take each other as liberated, dancing. He looks at her smiling in a surprisingly tender way; she extends her arms to him in happiness ( finally he is mine, like Gollum would say, ). Look at the picture (can't wait for more spicy screencap analysis). Tell me what this dancing suggests to you.
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 28, 2022 15:25:50 GMT
Hey, nice tag missisa. I love this moment so much I wrote a story about it, although when I was inside their heads they were considerably less optimistic than what you are offering above. Like they both want to believe it’s smooth sailing ahead, but they both know better. “Everything had changed. Nothing was the same.” Also, I think it’s just the big pouf on her dress, but they are awfully far apart. What do others think?
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Post by missisa on Feb 28, 2022 16:22:33 GMT
oh, I totally agree that there is a gap between them, maybe I didn't explain myself well. On the one hand (in appearance) they are in tune, and the dance shows it (and the look of the woman in the background says it all). On the other hand (their heads, their hearts), I agree that both are disconnected: he thinking that everything is going well - I confess that on this occasion I think of him as someone being totally fooled, thinking that María will surely come down to dinner in a few moments and that the happiness has come to his house (" nothing was the same when you were away", but remember he doesn't know that yet!). She clearly has more information than he does and although she has just chased away her most imminent demons, she knows that she has others to deal with, but I get the impression that at that moment she feels full of confidence (in fact, that allusion she makes to Max -"Well, if it's a matter of influence. . . maybe the one you have to be talking to is me", to me it is an explosion of self-confidence that Elsa has in her persuasive power at the moment. BTW augiesannie could you share with me the link to your fiction? I'll be happy to read it
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Post by augiesannie on Feb 28, 2022 16:35:28 GMT
Hmm, I see missisa, that is beautifully said. as you will see in my story, I think Elsa's feeling a little shaky ... but as usual your analysis is brilliant!
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Post by missisa on Feb 28, 2022 17:27:44 GMT
Hmm, I see missisa, that is beautifully said. as you will see in my story, I think Elsa's feeling a little shaky ... but as usual your analysis is brilliant! Wohoo! what a wonderful text augiesannie, I've read it, I'm impressed. How good it is and how deeply you analyzed the feelings. Gonna read much more of yours :-) I'll be right back, something got into my eye 🤪
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 28, 2022 20:43:27 GMT
There's a whole thread on this dance somewhere, isn't there?
I think both of them are relieved in this moment. Georg is past having to explain the Laendler, past the awkward dinner invite conversation, and past the ugly confrontation with Zeller. Elsa has handled the Maria problem. They are dancing, look wonderful, and are being admired by everyone in the room. Things are finally back on track, or maybe this is the first time they've been on track all evening. Regardless, both parties seem happy to be where they are.
They are dancing far apart, though it looks like everyone is. This must be proper etiquette for the time. The Laendler was so different because he was moving on instinct, not the rules of society.
Missisa, it has never occurred to me that Georg might be smiling because he is happy with anticipation of seeing Maria again. That's interesting. I wonder where she would have sat at dinner (I know with Max, but how close would Max be sitting to Georg?)
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Post by missisa on Feb 28, 2022 22:17:16 GMT
There's a whole thread on this dance somewhere, isn't there? I think both of them are relieved in this moment. Georg is past having to explain the Laendler, past the awkward dinner invite conversation, and past the ugly confrontation with Zeller. Elsa has handled the Maria problem. They are dancing, look wonderful, and are being admired by everyone in the room. Things are finally back on track, or maybe this is the first time they've been on track all evening. Regardless, both parties seem happy to be where they are. They are dancing far apart, though it looks like everyone is. This must be proper etiquette for the time. The Laendler was so different because he was moving on instinct, not the rules of society. Missisa, it has never occurred to me that Georg might be smiling because he is happy with anticipation of seeing Maria again. That's interesting. I wonder where she would have sat at dinner (I know with Max, but how close would Max be sitting to Georg?) reverendcaptain you have perfectly explained what I meant at the beginning. Relieved, an exact word for that dance. And yes, I always wondered how they would handle the Maria thing by standing everyone up. Probably when they went to look for her they would find the note and Franz or someone else would give it to Georg (it would not be addressed to anyone else). What a moment this must have been for Elsa, analyzing the Captain's face expression when reading the note, knowing that only she knows the reasons. God, is there a thread about this or a fiction? If you remember where that thread about the waltz is, paste it here!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 28, 2022 22:37:33 GMT
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Post by reverendcaptain on Feb 28, 2022 22:56:09 GMT
And yes, I always wondered how they would handle the Maria thing by standing everyone up. Probably when they went to look for her they would find the note and Franz or someone else would give it to Georg (it would not be addressed to anyone else). What a moment this must have been for Elsa, analyzing the Captain's face expression when reading the note, knowing that only she knows the reasons. God, is there a thread about this or a fiction? Do you think he would recognize her handwriting (on the envelope)? If he did, maybe he would excuse himself to read it alone in his study so that he wouldn't have to pretend to not have a reaction in front of everyone? If he did recognize it, he had to be thinking "Please let her just be saying she doesn't want to come to dinner, please, please, please....(tearing open the envelope)...F*&$!"
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Post by missisa on Mar 1, 2022 9:57:38 GMT
It is a very interesting assumption. Unless Franz very cheekily gave the note to him in the middle of dinner or something, or Elsa's questioning look prevented him from excusing himself, I think it's a very interesting option you propose reverendcaptainHowever, I don't think the possibility of Maria leaving the village ever crossed Georg's mind. For that reason, I rather imagine him reading the note absentmindedly, waiting for Maria's refusal to come down to dinner but nothing more -and I also imagine his stunned expression and Elsa's hidden smile when reading the disappointment in his eyes. In other words, a Georg reading the note in front of Elsa evokes many more feelings in me than he reading alone, because of that misinformation game that tickles me inside.
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 2, 2022 19:55:04 GMT
However, I don't think the possibility of Maria leaving the village ever crossed Georg's mind. For that reason, I rather imagine him reading the note absentmindedly, waiting for Maria's refusal to come down to dinner but nothing more -and I also imagine his stunned expression and Elsa's hidden smile when reading the disappointment in his eyes. In other words, a Georg reading the note in front of Elsa evokes many more feelings in me than he reading alone, because of that misinformation game that tickles me inside. This would make a for such a delicious fanfic. Maybe one of you lovely writers out there would take it on. Or maybe it exists and I just haven't read it?
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Post by Chris&Byng on Mar 7, 2022 20:02:32 GMT
I have always thought this was "Georg the Aristocrat" putting his aristocrat mask/face back on. Earlier, when Elsa caught him and Maria on the terrace, you see he kind of has a hard time keeping it together - resorting to the "it's kind of chilly out tonight" line. That is so out of character for his Captain-like personality.
At the end of the children's song, he and Maria lock eyes for a good while, showing he's still pretty affected by everything that went on earlier. But by the time the Edelweiss waltz happens, a bit of time has passed, he has better control of his emotions, and he knows he "got away with one"! He really needs to 'make it up' to Elsa to avoid further confrontation about what she witnessed on the terrace (that part, I don't feel he is emotionally ready to face at that moment, so a "fire? what fire? just a little smoke, nothing serious..." posture is definitely in order).
You can see this transition from 'actor' to 'real man' several times throughout the movie. Georg's demeanor, expressions & behaviour are quite different vs. when he is around Maria. When it's just he and Elsa, he is very stiff and proper. One of the more poignant moments in the movie for me is when Maria presents Georg with the guitar and Georg looks 'side-eyed' to Elsa to see if she 'approves' or not. It's a great example of this internal conflict to be the "real Georg" vs. the one he wears for show.
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