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Post by clarinetjamie on May 31, 2015 23:38:37 GMT
Possibly, but he knew way before that that Maria had some kind of unique charm and influence over him. After all he had a plan to try and use her to get the Captain to allow the children to sing in the festival and I think he even noticed that something was off during the Edelweiss scene. I was JUST about to say the EXACT same thing!!!! Wow! Same brain!! Haha, great minds think alike. |
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Post by utility_singer on Jun 1, 2015 1:23:59 GMT
Oh, Max knew. Probably even more than Georg, at the point where they told the children they were engaged.
Max definitely picked up on the sexual tension between M & G during Edelweiss, and he noticed Elsa noticing, too. And the short conversation between Max and Elsa after she came back down from scaring Maria away showed he knew Maria at that point had more influence on G than Elsa did.
He'd been around, presumably, for a very long time as a friend to G/'uncle' to the children. If he hadn't been, I think it unlikely he'd have stuck by G when he was being such a prick. And clearly he was important to the children, by their reactions to G saying he was coming to visit. Because of that, he'd have seen the change Maria had brought out in G with much clearer vision that Elsa would have, or even Georg himself.
So, yeah, I think Max absolutely knew that Georg marrying Elsa would be a disaster, and that his feelings for Maria (whether or not she ever returned) was a big reason why.
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jun 1, 2015 5:19:28 GMT
Ok, so this begs the question do you think that he and Max had any conversations about Maria while he was in Vienna before Max met her?
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Post by utility_singer on Jun 1, 2015 10:52:47 GMT
LOL I did when I wrote Thoughts from His Heart. I do, actually, if only the fact that this governess was actually sticking around longer than the others.
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Post by augiesannie on Jun 1, 2015 15:17:51 GMT
Oh, Max knew. Probably even more than Georg, at the point where they told the children they were engaged. Max definitely picked up on the sexual tension between M & G during Edelweiss, and he noticed Elsa noticing, too. And the short conversation between Max and Elsa after she came back down from scaring Maria away showed he knew Maria at that point had more influence on G than Elsa did. He'd been around, presumably, for a very long time as a friend to G/'uncle' to the children. If he hadn't been, I think it unlikely he'd have stuck by G when he was being such a prick. And clearly he was important to the children, by their reactions to G saying he was coming to visit. Because of that, he'd have seen the change Maria had brought out in G with much clearer vision that Elsa would have, or even Georg himself. So, yeah, I think Max absolutely knew that Georg marrying Elsa would be a disaster, and that his feelings for Maria (whether or not she ever returned) was a big reason why. Although Max does also tell Elsa that he wants to see her marry Georg. Though that's before he's met Maria. But still, he WAS encouraging. |
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Post by utility_singer on Jun 1, 2015 17:16:07 GMT
True. But when he saw the changes Maria made in all of them, and how despondent they were when she left?
He (Max) may have already seen the writing on the wall before Elsa confronted Maria, when he deliberately told her that his insistence Maria stay for dinner at the party was "business". He knew she would object, and he stopped her cold.
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Post by lemacd on Jun 1, 2015 18:40:55 GMT
Then seriously, what kind of ass friend is Max to either of them? If he was so aware, he just sat back and watched it all go down like a jerk.
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Post by indigoblue on Jun 1, 2015 23:05:46 GMT
One answer could be that Max, despite his charm, is entirely self-centred (viz getting the children to sing in public for his own gain), and this is borne out by his 'sitting back and letting it all happen'. Actually, some of Georg's rich asides to Max could be seen to support this viewpoint (but it isn't the one I want to believe!)
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Post by utility_singer on Jun 2, 2015 1:49:27 GMT
Then seriously, what kind of ass friend is Max to either of them? If he was so aware, he just sat back and watched it all go down like a jerk. Good question. In my mind, Max probably learned long ago not to rock Georg's boat, so to speak. I doubt Georg is the type to take unsolicited advice well, and telling him, "Yo, G I keep seeing you and the governess making the sexy eyes at each other. Whatcha gonna do about it?" Likely a long history of learning to sit back and wait for G to ask, and then be as honest as he could? Clearly he was close enough to be left -----and be willing to be left----with the kids while he honeymoons with Maria. As for Elsa, I don't feel that Max is a friend so much as a companion; someone to gossip with, the pal you don't have deep conversations with but call when you just feel like hanging out. |
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Post by lemacd on Jun 2, 2015 2:09:38 GMT
Then seriously, what kind of ass friend is Max to either of them? If he was so aware, he just sat back and watched it all go down like a jerk. Good question. In my mind, Max probably learned long ago not to rock Georg's boat, so to speak. I doubt Georg is the type to take unsolicited advice well, and telling him, "Yo, G I keep seeing you and the governess making the sexy eyes at each other. Whatcha gonna do about it?" Likely a long history of learning to sit back and wait for G to ask, and then be as honest as he could? Clearly he was close enough to be left -----and be willing to be left----with the kids while he honeymoons with Maria. As for Elsa, I don't feel that Max is a friend so much as a companion; someone to gossip with, the pal you don't have deep conversations with but call when you just feel like hanging out. i totally think he wouldn't rock the boat w/ georg, yes. and if he was of the same mind as elsa, that georg would get over his little infatuation, then i get it. why say make something of nothing. but those curious looks when they announce the engagement, the very thing he expects and asked elsa about when they first came to the villa... no, he sees that there is serious weirdness going on. so he doesn't say anything to georg... i get that. the captain isn't the one headed for heartache, not like elsa. if he sees the writing on the wall, he is essentially letting elsa get her heart crushed and doesn't do a bloody thing about it. even if they aren't close, that is just cold. selfish or not, i thought max had a touch more humanity than that. not much, mind you. but certainly some. just some thinking along certain lines. i know we've gone way off track. |
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jun 2, 2015 2:53:49 GMT
I agree with him not wanting to rock the boat. Georg isn't exactly at a place in his life where he has opened to a whole lot of people and Max knows him pretty well. He knows enough to not get involved in his personal affairs unless he actually opens up to him and talks about it.
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Post by indigoblue on Jun 2, 2015 22:06:37 GMT
Maybe Max could see that G was totally besotted with M and decided Elsa's case was a lost cause?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2015 22:14:12 GMT
Maybe Max could see that G was totally besotted with M and decided Elsa's case was a lost cause? That just sounds mean! No, I don't think Max would be like that. I'm sure he saw the 'influence' Maria had over Georg but possibly didn't think it was as serious as it was. |
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jun 3, 2015 3:17:47 GMT
I think it was cruel that he would even insinuate to Elsa that Maria had a bigger influence over him than she did.
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Post by utility_singer on Jun 3, 2015 3:39:42 GMT
I don't see it as deliberately cruel. I see Max, at that moment, as being calculating, for sure; he was looking at it as 'business' as he'd said, and didn't stop to think about whether or not Elsa would see it differently.
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jun 3, 2015 5:14:06 GMT
I don't see it as deliberately cruel. I see Max, at that moment, as being calculating, for sure; he was looking at it as 'business' as he'd said, and didn't stop to think about whether or not Elsa would see it differently. Yes, I agree with this. I think he just was thinking about what he was saying and doing because he was too absorbed in his own wants. |
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Post by paula on Jun 3, 2015 6:37:37 GMT
Then seriously, what kind of ass friend is Max to either of them? If he was so aware, he just sat back and watched it all go down like a jerk. I got the impression he found the whole scenario entertaining and actually enjoyed watching it all happen. |
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Post by utility_singer on Jun 3, 2015 10:58:16 GMT
Then seriously, what kind of ass friend is Max to either of them? If he was so aware, he just sat back and watched it all go down like a jerk. I got the impression he found the whole scenario entertaining and actually enjoyed watching it all happen. Which part? All of it? |
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Post by augiesannie on Jun 3, 2015 17:47:56 GMT
I don't think Max is a very nice person. and of course his character is purely functional. A little bit calculating or just kinda clueless (remember he says he is a child). I find that when I read stories where he is taking care of the children, or having a heart-to-heart with Georg, it doesn't ring true. Now, I myself have just written a scene in which Max is in that "sensitive best friend" position, so I don't always practice what I preach.
As for going off track, that's the joy of our group, to me! (also the mark of a lazy administrator).
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Post by cass on Jun 4, 2015 2:44:34 GMT
Max is a very useful tool in many situations... and a self-proclaimed leech. So. I hold nothing against him even if he is an ass in some of his comments and inaction regarding his socialite friends and their somewhat forced romance. He probably sees it as a "live and let live, then profit from it!" scenario, even if nothing sits right later down the line in terms of the "love match." The name of my next chapter to An Upright Man literally is "Unsolicited Advice," and it revolves around the idea that Georg does not take kindly to it. Max, having (at least in my head) a long history with Georg, would know this, and thus only pushes Georg's buttons when it comes to very Max-centric goals, ie forming a family singing group or self-preservation (let's get along with the Nazis -- talk about a horrible thing to say to Georg!). Truthfully though, what I find more interesting than his dynamic with Elsa and Georg is his dynamic with Maria. Their ease of interaction with one another upon return from honeymoon has always fascinated me, and while I'm sure there was many a rant about Max's bad habits that Maria was subjected to, he demonstrates strong loyalty and trustworthiness in that he is who was entrusted with the children's care for what was likely meant to be two months. She knows Max and Georg well enough at that point to referee the spat effectively and with graceful finality. He respects that, and she is amused by his continued attempts to salvage his plans in spite of Georg's temper. I have a sneaking suspicion that, once the engagement was on, they settled into a collegial friendship, and Maria comes to know that even though Max's number one concern is himself, Georg, his well-being, and the children do follow closely behind. It's kinda twisted and thickety, but it's there. Plus, it's always nice to have a third person involved in a relationship that knows the struggles one faces with one of those other persons! Sorry, were we supposed to be talking about Elsa and Georg...?  |
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Post by indigoblue on Jun 5, 2015 23:18:23 GMT
I've always got the feeling that Max is sort of enjoying the squirming going on when Georg announces his engagement to Elsa to the children - it's something about the expressions on his face as he sits at the table with them, and I can't forget that he is playing Patience immediately before (a card game for one, seen when Elsa plays ball, or tries to, with the kids) - it seems to emphasise his singularity??
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Post by indigoblue on Jun 17, 2015 23:41:06 GMT
I rather think Max takes the viewpoint 'What will be will be', and if Georg falls for Maria, there is little he can do to stop it. This is particularly the case if he is an equal friend of Georg's and Elsa's - who is he to try to stop Georg falling in love with Maria?
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Post by thebeestings on Jun 18, 2015 13:28:44 GMT
I've always got the feeling that Max is sort of enjoying the squirming going on when Georg announces his engagement to Elsa to the children - it's something about the expressions on his face as he sits at the table with them, and I can't forget that he is playing Patience immediately before (a card game for one, seen when Elsa plays ball, or tries to, with the kids) - it seems to emphasise his singularity?? I always wondered about this scene. What was he really thinking? Whenever I see it I am reminded by his rather cryptic line about his "fiendish delight at thinking of her as the mother of seven...". Everyone always focuses on her next line when she wicked stepmothers a bit and says she's going to send them all to boarding school... But clearly Max is teasing her about being ill suited to motherhood and anyone can see she is uncomfortable around the children. I wonder why he would push them together as a couple if he really cared that the children had the best new mother they could have? Maybe it really is all about the money? Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet this morning... |
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Post by clarinetjamie on Jun 18, 2015 14:12:08 GMT
I've always got the feeling that Max is sort of enjoying the squirming going on when Georg announces his engagement to Elsa to the children - it's something about the expressions on his face as he sits at the table with them, and I can't forget that he is playing Patience immediately before (a card game for one, seen when Elsa plays ball, or tries to, with the kids) - it seems to emphasise his singularity?? I always wondered about this scene. What was he really thinking? Whenever I see it I am reminded by his rather cryptic line about his "fiendish delight at thinking of her as the mother of seven...". Everyone always focuses on her next line when she wicked stepmothers a bit and says she's going to send them all to boarding school... But clearly Max is teasing her about being ill suited to motherhood and anyone can see she is uncomfortable around the children. I wonder why he would push them together as a couple if he really cared that the children had the best new mother they could have? Maybe it really is all about the money? Maybe I just haven't had enough coffee yet this morning... I think he cares about them and he genuinely loves the kids, but I think his numero uno concern is himself and how much money he can make. Now pass the coffee please! |
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Post by reverendcaptain on Sept 19, 2019 15:01:55 GMT
While this thread wandered off to discuss Max, it was initially about if Georg and Elsa were...together in Vienna. I am going with a hard no. Georg is not over Agathe at this point. I think he would feel that he is cheating on her (Agathe) if he were to be with Elsa. She knows how heartbroken he still is over his wife because she says this much to Max. My guess is that Elsa would be game if he would. But since they are not married yet, he can play the “it wouldn’t be proper” card to hold things off. This would be causing a lot of turmoil within him, having a beautiful woman who wants to be with him, and him not desiring her in that way. I can see how the temptation could be there when he is drunk at a party in Vienna and trying to run away from his memories. But there is only so far you can run from your own feelings. Is he dreading this part of their relationship once they (at this point it seems inevitably) marry? She is lovely, and he is a man, so being together would feel good on some level, but I think he knows it could never be the same as it was when he was in love with his partner. And he feels that he will never find that love again. That’s why he has taken so long to bring her to Salzburg. He likes her, she’s a good match socially, but something is off, so he’s not in a hurry to forward their relationship on any level.
I would say definitely nothing happened between them at the villa. He was too busy re-learning how to be a good father and beginning to form a relationship with Maria to even pay proper attention to Elsa. I feel bad for her in a way, that she was so mislead. Though, he didn’t do it intentionally. He was just learning himself what happiness he could possibly attain in his life.
On a side note, I can see that there were 141 “guests” on this forum in the last 24 hours alone. If you like this movie enough to be reading these threads, then I’m sure you have insightful things to say about them. It is super easy to create a username and then be able to comment. Go for it!
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Post by reverendcaptain on Mar 24, 2020 16:55:45 GMT
Well, since we are talking in other threads about when Georg and Maria were first together, what do you think about Georg and Elsa? Did they or didn't they?
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Post by tsomlyss on Mar 27, 2020 2:09:20 GMT
Well, since we are talking in other threads about when Georg and Maria were first together, what do you think about Georg and Elsa? Did they or didn't they? I've always taken the lines "i have a feeling I may be here on approval" and "tell max every teensy-weensy intimate disgusting detail" to be slightly alluding to possible relations |
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Post by Silver-White-Winters on Mar 27, 2020 3:41:53 GMT
Well, since we are talking in other threads about when Georg and Maria were first together, what do you think about Georg and Elsa? Did they or didn't they? I've always taken the lines "i have a feeling I may be here on approval" and "tell max every teensy-weensy intimate disgusting detail" to be slightly alluding to possible relations With those lines, I always thought that Max was hoping for more than what exactly happened. In my opinion, nothing really sexual happened between Elsa and Georg. I mean, I am sure there was some heavy make out sessions with a touch here or there, but not actual bedroom activity. If that made sense? As for the "here on approval" part, I'm not sure about that. |
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Post by utility_singer on Mar 27, 2020 11:10:38 GMT
"Here on approval" clearly (to me) means on the *childrens'* approval.
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Post by indigoblue on Mar 27, 2020 23:57:08 GMT
I think Elsa flirts so much with Georg, it belies the fact that she feels insecure about whether she matters to him, and is still trying to 'catch' him.
So no, I don't think they have (quite) got there yet (- maybe nearly!)
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